986 Forum - The Community for Porsche Boxster & Cayman Owners - What is the name/manufacture of the sin bearing?

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- - What is the name/manufacture of the sin bearing? (http://986forum.com/forums/boxster-general-discussions/48776-what-name-manufacture-sin-bearing.html)

Young man - no one is saying you are not bright or even brilliant and may come up with a great solution...but you could learn a lot from the presentation style of smart people like Feelyx and the generosity of folks like Jake. I work with a lot of bright young people and I find their only weakness is they don't realize how important real life experience is. I try to find their strengths and nurture them along. You sir have a large ego that may make you a lot of money some day but certainly it won't make for easy conversation.

You would have received full acceptance by everyone had you not gone on the attack. There is a big difference between saying something is crap science and saying you believe it may not have been done correctly. See the key word there is 'believe'.

I already feel bad because this is the harshest I have ever been toward anybody after 1000+ posts. Carry on. We look forward to your results.

You shouldn't feel bad. We all have opinions...like mine on the IMSG. I didn't say they were stupid, or bash them, I said, from one engineer to another, that it doesn't seem like the right solution to me. Of course the IMSGs success proves itself; they're making money, I'm not. That's why I'm in a forum showing my opinion and not on their porch screaming at their face.

It just so happens other members and I were sharing opinions of the IMSG.

More on topic: I might also have a way to get some undergrads to do the research behind my idea as their senior design project. It would certainly produce more quality research in a timely manner given my schedule. Otherwise, I'll start using my weekends to develop the prototype. More info by the weekend on that.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by epapp (Post 367620)

Well, like I said much earlier, I have a thesis to write. This is a side project of an idea that I had, and has also been verified by a 'bearing' PhD. So YOU can call BS all you'd like, because in my spare time this project will be finished and implemented on my car.

Of course theres no data or testing happening this second, other than playing with the sensors that I plan to use, which also hasn't happened yet....When you're getting paid to get a PhD, you do the PhD work as much as you can.

Maybe in a few months I will have a POC. Then interested people can buy the IP and supply all you haters with my solution. :troll:

Vibration Analysis (in-angle sensor) is the only other known resource for such project but already phased out mate. Not effective. Those frequencies (or velocity decibel) of a bad bearing for instance will only occur during its later stage e.g. just before failure. Rather useless in the industry - unless triggering a kill-switch like prototyped F1 motors.

Real-time oil chemistry and property analysis is winning by far - at least it provides historical data of any sort of failures. Problem is the price of the system for an everyday end user!

We are not haters buddy I reassure you (lol), we are skeptical that's all ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nine8Six (Post 367652)

Thats why academia is a great place to be when trying to devise a new system :D

I agree with you! You make me miss my best years... although I had to work part-time at McDonald during those ;)

Bear in mind that a lot of 986 owners uses different synthetic oils and weight. Design your system to be as dynamic as possible please. Huge challenge for ya.

imo the LN engineering/Flat6 innovation guardian idea is the best. So bloody simple and ridiculously cheap as well - now that works for me.

Don't quit school (I didn't meant what I said in an earlier post). Apologies

I assume you're talking about vibration monitoring?

What is the name/manufacture of the sin bearing?

I know epapp talks big and may come off as arrogant, trust me, I know.... But having known him for quite a while, I can say that he only does so when he's pretty darn sure he can back it up. I for one am interested in seeing how the system develops...

I mean, you should see his A/C cold air intake <- jk

Honestly the IMSG only gives a symptom to an issue that otherwise would not have one. The more wise choice is retrofitting.
The IMSG really only makes sense on the cheap cars that aren't worth the cost of retrofitting.

Too many people have used the IMSG as a "trade in tool". They have an alert, quantify that its real, rip the system out and then trade the car off.

That sad, but is occurring. One of the people in my class this past weekend witnessed it occur and shared the story.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephen wilson (Post 367728)

I assume you're talking about vibration monitoring?

Whatever you call it, it remains useless. The wave spectrum of the vibrations in the cold Montreal Boxster will always be different from a hot Florida spirit driven Boxster. Useless, garbage technology.

Great in a 'static' environment however. Same engine, same oil, same parts, ambient temp.... saved many R&D staffers from 17,000RPM thin-walled block explosions... other than that. Dunno what it could be used for.

Heard the latest McLaren knock sensor had a 700+ page datasheet. Monitoring is the last phase of any implementations. The embedded algorithm those sensors have today is pretty intense - they can also do real-time analysis/perform smart ops. Problem is nobody can apply those in a dynamic environment without them costing millions of dosh anyway ;) Useless.

epapp have recently developed an "x-ray" sensor in his third underground. Don't tell anyone I told you. The automotive spy crowd is after him already

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake Raby (Post 367735)

The IMSG really only makes sense on the cheap cars that aren't worth the cost of retrofitting.

Which is what the 986 is today, honestly. Therefore excellent product, works in all its features. Can't see anything wrong with the IMSG and not sure why epapp is so not convinced by its simplicity.

Whatever. I know crap about cars anyway. I'm out of here

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shehadehd (Post 367732)

may come off as arrogant? ya think? I don't really care how sure he is of himself - you don't walk into a room of knowledgeable, experienced people and start swinging your dick like he did. He needs to learn a little humility, be a little less full of himself, and remember that people here were working on this issue when he was still pushing Tonka trucks around his sandbox and making vroom-vroom noises. Especially given that he has nothing to show us to back his claim, just a bunch of empty chatter.

”Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.“ – Albert Einstein

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark_T (Post 367743)

Somebody is upset :ah:

And I did have a sandbox...that I played with many little trucks in. I think you're just upset that I claim to have a solution all while being so much less experienced than...you?

Not at all. I just think that your attitude is inappropriate and I call things how I see them.

I work with lots of engineers and I am used to seeing young pups like you fresh out of school thinking that they are God's gift to the field. You'll understand where I am coming from once you have a few more years under your belt.

And, for the record, I'd really like to hear your idea, as opposed to you just telling us what a great idea you think you have.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark_T (Post 367750)

I work with lots of engineers

Don't we all

Quote:

Originally Posted by epapp (Post 367111)

Thanks, I just saw that whole thread. Thats a great idea/solution, with the EXCEPTION of a few things.

1) It requires just as much work to implement a direct oil feed as it does to just replace the bearing with a ceramic one. Actually, probably more.

2) It doesn't help out the broke graduate students (myself) doing all kinds of DIYs to their cars. I don't know if my bearing is bad. Why should I pull the transmission off and inspect it if I don't have to AND there is an easy solution other than pulling it off?

3) most importantly: oil is not the same a grease. Grease that is packed into roller bearings is specific to the type of ball bearing deformation when each ball is loaded independently. Oil will keep the bearing cool and lubricated, but it is not protecting the ball bearings like grease will. Therefore, an oil feed system is potentially just prolonging the problem and not solving it.

To the point of that extremely long thread about trying to recreate the bearing failure, in my opinion, is completely funk. The parts that I read through showed a bearing being spun by a lathe. OK thats a start, and the grease will be spun out of the balls. There is no load on the bearing though. Without a load, the balls will not deform, the grease will not act as it would inside of the engine, and the whole test shows nothing other than how long an unloaded ball bearing can spin for.

In fact, an unloaded ball bearing with grease packed into it is doing more harm than good. If you pick up a few books of how grease works on the molecular level with respect to the pressures during properly loaded roller bearing operation, there are all kinds of pressure regions and hydro-elastic properties that create thin and thick layers of grease(depending on where the ball is at in its rotation with respect to the load). An unloaded bearing has completely different properties and because the grease is allowed to 'build up' more because of the lack of a load, there is more separation between the ball and the outer/inner race. Since grease works on the basis that it will be compressed, spinning a bearing with no load proves nothing.

To the point of the IMS guardian, I originally thought it was my best bet for some piece of mind. But then I realized it gave me very little piece of mine, because:

1) IF the guardian does alert the driver, it doesn't mean anything specifically related to the IMSB. If I were driving and the guardian LED lit up, the first question I would ask myself: "is this from my bearing or is something else wrong?" Yes, if there is enough metal to short the two electrodes, something is probably wrong, but it doesn't mean my IMS is bad.

2) With the guardian, there is no guarantee it will even alert you of a bearing failure. Buying it wouldn't give me any piece of mind, because I would still be wondering "what exactly is happening to my bearing?"...the guardian doesn't answer that. What if my bearing is somehow wearing the outer row of roller balls and throwing metal debris to the outer seal, instead of the inner seal? There's also no guarantee the metal will end up in the oil.

What is so easy to implement, and what I will do in my 'spare' time while doing my thesis on a completely unrelated topic, is put together an extremely accurate way to diagnose the health of the IMSB without even pulling out the oil drain plug. Without giving anything away now, my PI even already told me he has the 'instruments' I need to start solving this problem.

Using this system I will ultimately come up with, you will instantly know the health of your bearing as soon as it is powered on. No guessing/waiting for metal to accumulate.

Sorry, there is no way to send a text message to the bearing to ask if its doing well or not.

You can monitor camshaft deviation at intervals like 5000 miles
You can take your oil filter apart and check for metal particles
You can take your oil pan off at oil changes as well.

Broke and lazy dont work together. I remember not being able to afford many repairs or modifications in college, and being able to still get the result I wanted by rolling my sleeves up and getting the job done myself.

Cheap? Porsche sells an original IMS bearing for about $120, although I wouldnt recommend it.

Being too lazy to pull the transmission down? Tough s**t! If you dont want to pay someone $500 to paint your hallway, go to home depot, buy the paint, and do it yourself. No sympathy here.

Its not that bad to pull the transmission down anyway:cheers:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigsmoothlee (Post 367753)

Of course I do all my own work, short of mounting the tires to the rims. Although my friend claims he mounts tires with a sledge hammer and lots of pushing. Somehow it doesn't sound like thats the right thing to do with Porsche rims.

I'm not broke (but I would always do my own work before paying someone else to do it), and I have no reason to pull the transmission until next summer to put in my new clutch. If I needed to (or had signs of RMS/IMS failure) I would pull it in a heartbeat.

That being said, wouldn't an IMS bearing health solution be easy and nice if you didn't need to remove anything for it to work??

I guess, but theres no other way to monitor the health of that bearing...

Maybe theres a certain frequency when the bearing is failing that could be measured around the oil pump drive?

If the guy has a good idea and wants to work hard to develop it and bring it to market, then more power to him. He needs to realize that the idea and making it work are really the easiest 25% of the process, the rest is what doesn't come easy.

That said the majority of my life my age worked against me in the industry. I was "fixing" mistakes made by those who were working on engines before I was born when I was a teenager. I started this company when I was 13 (literally) and ran it through the time I was in the USMC, most of the time out of my barracks room and selling parts and engines at the Pomona Swap Meet. I came home at age 22 and went full time, having to fight the old codgers that had to be proven wrong to get any respect from them.

Still today I fight that and I promised to never be one of those old bastards that stopped learning, didn't care and only thought that my time on this planet made me better or smarter than the next guy.

Anyone who decides to play this game better have strength and endurance, and be able to work while sleep depraved. They had better not care about having nights, weekends and holidays off and they better be willing to spend every single dime they have in savings and max out every credit card they own to chase the dream. If they don't, then they'd best just collect their paycheck from someone else and not sign it themselves.