I agree its a plus that the IMSG means much more than just a bearing problem, i.e. alerting you of more than just IMSB failure.

But the failure rate of those other parts you mentioned seem to me to have a much lower probability of failure when compared to the IMSB. Sure cam chains can break, and the IMSG will probably pick up on the metal fragments and alert you, but my quest is to solve the issue of unknown IMSB health given my cam chains will probably be fine for the life of the engine (probably just jinxed myself).

I'm not the type that loses sleep over my IMSB failing, but it sure is time for some real engineering (probably set off some short fuses with that one).

epapp.... shortish fuses maybe but......

Over the last 40 years working in Engineering around the world I've been associated with some very smart guys - BSc's, MSc's and Dr's, Hons grads etc, etc. Most of these young guns thought they were Gods Gift to the Engineering World As We Know It, but that mindset only lasted a couple of years after graduation & reality kicked in - sometimes you have to put aside the theory and look at the problem from a wholly realistic & practical view based on years of hands on analysis. Many a humble shop Foreman has outwitted his new Grad Eng on the practicalities of life.

Now I agree that new ideas from keen minds are the stuff of dreams, but remember that some people have been at the IMS coal face for over 10 years, pioneering solutions that have saved us mere mortals a whole wad of money with their combined expertise, knowledge and commitment. Flat 6's Jake Raby, LN Engineering's Charles Navaro and Hartech's Barry Hart are no fools and have earned their spurs the hard way. To say that you are going to add "some real engineering" to the IMS problem (which by the way, they were working on when you were probably still going through puberty) is going to be very interesting.

I for one am looking forward to your revelation regarding a new course of action - the Epapp Solution (Pappsolution) perhaps ...........

Not so much. I currently have failed engines in my facility from 23 states & 3 Canadian provinces, and they came to me in their respective Porsches shipped from all over North America.

Of those TWO of them are here for failed IMS Bearings. The rest are here for one of the other 24 modes of failure. In the last 6 weeks we have seen 4 broken timing chains and have caught one more that was in the process of failing and was discovered while qualifying an engine for an IMS Solution retrofit procedure.

The reason why more of the other failures occur today and less IMSB failures is primarily because more engines have been proactively retrofitted. Another reason is because the other issues have always been there and because we have always seen them, they just haven't been highlighted like the IMSB issue. When I have tried to share this I was just blacklisted as a "fear monger" for exposing this. I pulled those details off the site because I got tired of it. The jobs find us, no matter what.

To see some examples look at the albums on my facebook page
Flat 6 Innovations Facebook page

Concerning "real Engineering", well there's always more than one way to achieve the same end result. Some are better than others and some are overly complicated. Simplicity drives my personal developments. The component that isn't there, can't fail. Thats why the IMS Solution eliminates 11 wear components found within the OEM single row IMSB.

While I believe the laws of Physics are laws in the real world there can be so many variables and conditions that the laws are difficult, impractical or impossible to apply.

I recall a long discussion with a PhD in Physics that could not explain why countersteering a motorcycle works, and even questioned that it does work.

In my book best idea wins! Best luck to all that try to solve these problems and please hurry up my double row has 104K mi and I am too cheap to change it before clutch time.

This is actually getting quite comical. "Real engineering"... please. :rolleyes:

At every PCA event I am surrounded by successful engineers, business owners, physicists, medical doctors, rocket scientists, race team owners, and F1 engine suppliers. The ones who build on the groundwork laid by those with years of hands-on experience and apply their specialized skills are thriving. The ones who ignore or discount those with the most direct hands-on experience go nowhere fast.

Carry on. :)

Yeah, I was kinda interested in what young Ponder Stibbons here had to say, right up until the "real engineering" comment. Could be just me, but I thought that was a tad arrogant.

Btw, will this be called the ePap test?

[QUOTE=epapp;367111]Thanks, I just saw that whole thread. Thats a great idea/solution, with the EXCEPTION of a few things.

3) most importantly: oil is not the same a grease. Grease that is packed into roller bearings is specific to the type of ball bearing deformation when each ball is loaded independently. Oil will keep the bearing cool and lubricated, but it is not protecting the ball bearings like grease will. Therefore, an oil feed system is potentially just prolonging the problem and not solving it.


automobile application may be different from high speed servo, but I was informed that the "grease" portion was natural or paraffin and is added to hold the oil. that oil is the lubricant.

Us ignorant bumpkins have no idea what we are doing.............

http://images6.fanpop.com/image/phot...-2000-1561.jpg

Or its potentially Debris Oil Feeding the component, catalyzing the chances of failures.

Who knows, tons of mouse traps out there now. I remember when there were none and we had to create the first one.

Fishing lures catch more fisherman than fish.

Skeptic or not, stick around.

Yes it is arrogant to say real engineering...blah blah blah. We are allow working towards the same goal here, I just have to make myself feel like my solution is better so I will actually build the damn thing.

I will promise one thing: my IMSB health monitoring solution will be conclusive. If I release it, it will be because the data is reasonably accurate and can be replicated.

Once I can judge my IMSB health, I will probably need to crowd source for some more data. Since I don't have 10 boxsters laying around, I'll need a way to gather data of different IMSB healths to make any kind of judgement.


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Be prepared to force an engine failure under controlled conditions with the system employed. I sacrificed two engines during the development of the IMSG, one of which was specifically built to be killed by installing an IMSB into it that was already at stage 3 IMSB failure.

If you need to gather this data and gather the data I do have these engines in my lab and they are available. Currently one of them is being used for similar research, so a compound test may be possible.

Projections and assumptions don't cut it.

But it wouldn't be cheap.

I wouldn't necessarily need to force engine failure, I just would like to test with more than one engine. Only testing the system on my bearing will still show the health of my bearing, no other information needed. My system will not rely on known failure modes to function properly.

Opinions may vary.

I had a deep desire to see exactly how much run time would occur after an IMS alert was initiated, before the engine had symptoms otherwise and then how much longer it would take to scatter parts.

I felt that development wasn't complete until I had experienced failure and knew how the system would both perform and respond.

Like I said, I'd spend the time and money on a patent search. You might just find something that will surprise you, and find it from a surprising source.

Coming from a GP paddock in Superbike racing, from what's left to me to tell publically is the LN Guardian idea is already widely utilized by all manufacturers doing r&d protoyping and race-ready machinery. A tad bit more advanced however! Real-time oil analysis and monitoring have been necessary for more than two decade already. Today tho... many "commercial" and "cheap" sensors are already able to trigger based on detection of oxidation, additives, thermal changes and various other physical or chemical properties. This technology was possibly coming from your (great phd) professor team (thank you) of course but sadly for you it can already be found in today's commercial shelves everywhere.

So please, don't make us wait for the 986 "adapted" kit!

A PIC programed based microcomputer (or an open sourced Arduino?!), a simple modern sensor with a 14*1mm threaded end, and 3.3v, is what you simply need to put together for your super "Porsche Complete Real-Time (all) Fluid Monitoring System". Oil, coolant, you could also sensor'ed the windows washer fluid.

And what else... oh yea; FAK sensors - they are often stupid! I'd rather just have my $3k backup 986 engine sitting in my garage ;) and I think I also have about 7 other backup motors meant for both my race-ready superbike and practice track bike.

there you go friend, contact Jack for a few prototype sensors.... he'll customized their freq for your given application(s) for the same price as well I'm sure. That's just an idea out of hundreds other available mate ;) https://www.stle.org/assets/document/03-08_OA_Sensors.pdf

Let me know when you are done, I'll sponsor a kit off you (for your study ONLY). I could do with a few extra little blue LEDs on my 986 dash!

Who ended up selling this design - particularly this aspect:

Post 169: "...What I am developing is a setup that takes the swivel point from inside the shaft, and moves it to outside the case. With my setup, the bearing insert has 2 steps that support the shaft on different levels to make it rigid in the shaft, the bearing is supported in the case halves, where as the original setup, the chains pull on the bearing and shaft (like a lever) causing the inner race of the bearing to deflect and case to flex..."

My idea is not any kind of oil monitoring. Like I said, the system will provide virtually fool proof data about the IMS bearing health.

So you keep saying, but all we've seen so far is a load of bluster and biillshiit.

Then no offence mate but I call it BS. You wouldn't be one of those jealous LN Engineering competitor by any chance?!

Let me call my mates in Milton Keynes at the RedBull R&D.... I'll email you back a job application form. Quit school NOW if you already know better is my best advice.

Well, like I said much earlier, I have a thesis to write. This is a side project of an idea that I had, and has also been verified by a 'bearing' PhD. So YOU can call BS all you'd like, because in my spare time this project will be finished and implemented on my car.

Of course theres no data or testing happening this second, other than playing with the sensors that I plan to use, which also hasn't happened yet....When you're getting paid to get a PhD, you do the PhD work as much as you can.

Maybe in a few months I will have a POC. Then interested people can buy the IP and supply all you haters with my solution. :troll: