test drove 2013 camaro SS manual... not impressed

[southernstar]

Perfectlap, PorscheChick was joking - and lets face it, those WERE the old stereotypes! I don't disagree about lap times - although the percentage of Porsche buyers who are interested in lapping their cars is so small that the company can afford to ignore them. Whether they should is another matter.

I think it is also important to bear in mind that this is not a recent development. While I am unaware of direct comparisons at the time, I have no doubt that a 5 litre1966 Shelby GT 350 would have turned better lap times than the 2.0 litre Porsche 911 of the same vintage.

If your primary interest is lap times, then the Corvette is no doubt a much better buy. To many, however, the issue is not lap times in an absolute sense, but getting the best out of your car in comparison to comparable cars. Is the Vette going to be faster on most tracks than a Boxster/Cayman? Absolutely. But as a result, why would someone get a thrill out of turning a faster time in one as against a Boxster or Cayman? What does that say about their driving ability?

The Boxster and Cayman are not as fast overall, but they have more precise steering and turn - in than the Camaro or Vette, allowing a good driver to hit their 'marks' much more accurately and consistently. Indeed, according to a number of testers on track, the Cayman may be the best there is in this vital trait for a good sports car. Add to that brakes that are generally conceded to be as well balanced and easy to modulate as any available in a production car (always a Porsche trait, brought on in part because, with the intevitable weight transference forward under heavy braking, a mid or rear-engined car uses front and rear brakes more effectively than a front-engined one). Shifting is also much lighter - truly a 'snick, snick' engagement that is not possible with the heavier transmissions in the Camaro and the Vette. This is to say nothing of the ability of the Boxster or Cayman to maintain better composure/balance on rough roads due to the superior suspension design; if the suspension is made stiff enough, a transverse leaf spring like the Vetttes can work well on the generally smooth pavement on tracks, but the car will be more skittish when the roads get rough.
To me, regardless of absolute lap times, all of this this equates to a car that is more fun to drive, especially on the road rather than on track.

Brad

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by southernstar

Perfectlap, PorscheChick was joking - and lets face it, those WERE the old stereotypes! I don't disagree about lap times - although the percentage of Porsche buyers who are interested in lapping their cars is so small that the company can afford to ignore them. Whether they should is another matter.

I think it is also important to bear in mind that this is not a recent development. While I am unaware of direct comparisons at the time, I have no doubt that a 5 litre1966 Shelby GT 350 would have turned better lap times than the 2.0 litre Porsche 911 of the same vintage.

If your primary interest is lap times, then the Corvette is no doubt a much better buy. To many, however, the issue is not lap times in an absolute sense, but getting the best out of your car in comparison to comparable cars. Is the Vette going to be faster on most tracks than a Boxster/Cayman? Absolutely. But as a result, why would someone get a thrill out of turning a faster time in one as against a Boxster or Cayman? What does that say about their driving ability?

The Boxster and Cayman are not as fast overall, but they have more precise steering and turn - in than the Camaro or Vette, allowing a good driver to hit their 'marks' much more accurately and consistently. Indeed, according to a number of testers on track, the Cayman may be the best there is in this vital trait for a good sports car. Add to that brakes that are generally conceded to be as well balanced and easy to modulate as any available in a production car (always a Porsche trait, brought on in part because, with the intevitable weight transference forward under heavy braking, a mid or rear-engined car uses front and rear brakes more effectively than a front-engined one). Shifting is also much lighter - truly a 'snick, snick' engagement that is not possible with the heavier transmissions in the Camaro and the Vette. This is to say nothing of the ability of the Boxster or Cayman to maintain better composure/balance on rough roads due to the superior suspension design; if the suspension is made stiff enough, a transverse leaf spring like the Vetttes can work well on the generally smooth pavement on tracks, but the car will be more skittish when the roads get rough.
To me, regardless of absolute lap times, all of this this equates to a car that is more fun to drive, especially on the road rather than on track.

Brad

I not taking away any of the strenghts of the Porsches. Although I don't think that's reason most (obviously with means) buy them, I personally think it has a lot more to do with status.

First of all let's dispell the idea that the Porsche has something that all others lack. Granted, although the Porsche strengths are not common in the car market, there are many sports cars that are not made by Porsche and provide all of the same street-level thrills and excellent feedback. The bulk of a Porsche's strenghts, when speeds are high and the wheel is turned, are not experienced by the average Porsche buyer, they drive them just like they would any other car, on the road -- at the speed limit. You don't need a Porsche to manage that.
So it begs the question why do so many spend all the extra money in the first place when other choices can provide the same emotion of speed limit driving? Because they want some of the perceived exclusivity.
The fact of the matter is that Porsche is not exclusive at all, there are hundreds of thousands of them glutting the market right now. And VW intend to make that condition worse. And if you're a 'gotta have it now!" type buyer, I recently counted 1,000 water-cooled Carreras on Autotrader on any given day. Yep, 10 pages with 100 Carreras on each page. That's nuts -- and we haven't even gotten to the Caymans, Cayennes, Panas and Boxsters. But let's face it we are all guilty of wanting some of that perceived exclusivity to some degree, some just decide to attain in the second-hand market, while others are perfectly willing to take the depreciation hit.

Now, if you're going to sell a sports car at such premiums then you simply can't escape the glaring reality of laptimes. They inconveniently serve to remind that the Porsches are no more capable, in their native enviorment, than many 'budget' sports cars commonly seen on an autocross course or track day on any given day.
And I think we can all agree that the premium is not because of Lexus reliablity which questions the practicality of these cars when maintainenace and the cost of unexpected repairs, some disastrous, come at such a higher price than those other cars. I have enjoyed my Porsche for over a decade but the experience has not left me as convert to the church of Dr. Porsche. And Detroit is right on time with some of these new offerings that appear to be very practical for street driving, with superior high performance capability, no 'Porsche tax' or warranty penalization and significantly lower running costs. What's missing? intangibles. But seriously how much are those really worth? Luckily for Porsche their customers are not versed in asking such questions, they want what they want, when they want it.

[thstone]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

... But seriously how much are those really worth?

What are those Porsche intangibles worth? The market determines the what buyers are willing to spend for the additional perceived value.

In the case of the base Corvette vs base Carrera 2, those Porsche intangibles are valued by buyers at $34,700. That is the price premium (aka Porsche tax) that Porsche buyers pay.

It takes a strong brand to command that kind of premium.

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by thstone

What are those Porsche intangibles worth? The market determines the what buyers are willing to spend for the additional perceived value.

In the case of the base Corvette vs base Carrera 2, those Porsche intangibles are valued by buyers at $34,700. That is the price premium (aka Porsche tax) that Porsche buyers pay.

It takes a strong brand to command that kind of premium.

True, and largely why they are amongst the most profitable (if not the most).
But many other brands also command big premiums and put out cars that are not remarkable in reliability or performance. Specifically luxury cars, ie Range Rover, Merc, etc.
My point being I think it has less to do with the actual car and more to do with how the deep-pocketed buyer perceives the brand or the status that comes with the owning of it. Porsche has slowly but surely been turned into a luxury brand.
Chevy and Dodge will never be luxury brands no matter how capable their sports cars become. They could blow out every Porsche by seconds on every track -- with every day streetability -- and will never enjoy the premium of a luxury brand. Porsche aren't selling 10X's as many cars in a given year because there are now 10X's as many sports car drivers as there were in the 993 days. There are now many more wealthy buyers and Porsche have learned to mass produce in a profitable way. A perfect matching of luxury seekers and efficient production.

[thstone]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

True, and largely why they are amongst the most profitable (if not the most).
But many other brands also command big premiums and put out cars that are not remarkable in reliability or performance. Specifically luxury cars, ie Range Rover, Merc, etc.
My point being I think it has less to do with the actual car and more to do with how the deep-pocketed buyer perceives the brand or the status that comes with the owning of it. Porsche has slowly but surely been turned into a luxury brand.
Chevy and Dodge will never be luxury brands no matter how capable their sports cars become. They could blow out every Porsche by seconds on every track -- with every day streetability -- and will never enjoy the premium of a luxury brand. Porsche aren't selling 10X's as many cars in a given year because there are now 10X's as many sports car drivers as there were in the 993 days. There are now many more wealthy buyers and Porsche have learned to mass produce in a profitable way. A perfect matching of luxury seekers and efficient production.

+1 Well said.