Duel Row Bearing Consensus ?

[Camibox]

146,000 miles on my 99

[fatmike]

JD - At the risk of jinxing myself...



I believe my car has a dual row bearing. I previously considered putting in a new bearing.

If my car was in the VIN range of the single row, I would likely pro-actively do it. Since it's likely dual, I don't plan to update it for now.




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[runjmc2]

Consensus and bearing in the same sentence on a 986 forum....lol.

It's all about risk/reward and every situation is different so the lack of a single answer is understandable.

[ATX_Boxster]

Here's a good read from Flat 6 regarding the upgrade installation. Seems like they will give the Box a thorough inspection both pre and post installation of the new bearing as part of their process:

The Flat 6 IMS Bearing Retrofit in Detail - Page 4

As a new owner, I would really want to feel comfortable with my shop before I went ahead with a procedure like this for preventative maintenance. Seems that if the bearing removal or install were botched, (or anything else along the way), then I'd also have things to worry about - and may not even know it.

[jaykay]

Some things to keep in mind:

Unless my information is outdated, MY 2000 can have a double or a single row. I was lucky with finding a double row. Going in there and doing it is how you find out. I wanted to ensure that if I had a single row, it got changed

The double rows are sealed as well and will have less than optimum lubrication inspite its better load capacity.

A double row hybrid bearing is a nice thing to have in that location along with a 997 RMS (although mine popped on the track!)

My double row showed signs of oil ingress means the seals were going. This means the dedicated lube was starting to wash away

[pothole]

Originally Posted by southernstar

Yes, I have replaced a number of failed water pumps on these engines, although generally with higher mileage. Of course, I have also seen transmissions fail - would you like me to replace that too?

Brad

Heh, very droll. But it somewhat misses the point. The water pump failing can take the engine with it if things really go bad in the wrong way. If a new water pump was $5 fitted, you'd be mad not to change it every 20k miles or so, just to be on the safe side. The fact that the transmission can fail is irrelevant to that. As it is, the water pump costs more than $5 but it's still cheap enough to be worth considering as a part you refresh proactively rather than when it fails. Not every 20 k miles, but somewhere in the 60-100k range depending on how you feel about it.

Another critical point is that there are some parts that when they fail they tend not to take the rest of the car / engine with it. Actually, the transmission is one of these. It won't really cost you more to replace it when it goes than before it goes because it usually won't damage anything else when it dies. With the water pump, a failure could see you overheat the engine and kill that, too. So it makes sense to have a different attitude and consider replacing it before it fails.

There are limits to this. I've done my water pump because DIY it's not expensive. I'm not up to doing my bearing DIY and it's probably 1/3 of the value of the car to get it done, thus a deem it uneconomical. The fact that I have a dual-row bearing makes that an easier call.

[jb92563]

Yea, I probably have Dual Row, pending a look at the actual IMS Cover.
That being the case, I'm not going to worry about it ever, and if it does go, I'll have an excuse for a 3.4l or 3.6l upgrade.

Here is how you can tell based on the Lawsuit included vehicles (Single row bearing only)

VIN Decoder

To decode your VIN to see if you are included you just need the last 8 digits to determine if you are in the range or not.
ie VIN WP0CA29851S620508 last 8 = 1S620508

From Left to right of last 8:
1 = model year (1=2001 2=2002 etc)
S = Factory (S= Stutgart, U=Finland)
6 = Car Type (6= 986, 7=987)
2 = Engine/Body ( 2=??? ( 2.5l, 2.7l), 6=3.2l)
0508 = Production Sequence number

Mine is 1U66 0917 which is well outside the range of single row bearing cars produced in Finland (WP0CB2986 1U66 4289 - WP0CB2984 1U66 5473)
So Im very likely a Dual row bearing.

If you can see your bearing here is how you can tell. Single row on Left, Dual Row cover on right. Notice the shallow "dish" of the Dual row cover.






Which Porsche vehicles are included?
The following Porsche Boxster and 911 vehicles that experienced or will experience IMS related engine damage are included:
• Model year 2001 - 2005 Porsche Boxster vehicles manufactured with an IMS between May 4, 2001 and February 21, 2005 with VINs in the following ranges:
o WP0CA29851S620508 - WP0CA29831S620619
o WP0CB29811S660405 - WP0CB29801S660492
o WP0CA29821U625959 - WP0CA29891U627644
o WP0CB29861U664289 - WP0CB29841U665473
o WP0CA29892S620061 - WP0CA29802S620238
o WP0CA29832U620061 - WP0CA29892U626107
o WP0CB29802U660062 - WP0CB29892U664319
o WP0CB29862S660062 - WP0CB29852S660344
o WP0ZZZ98Z2U602762
o WP0ZZZ98Z2U640813
o WP0CA298X3S620068 - WP0CA29853S620222
o WP0CA29813U620061 - WP0CA298X3U625002
o WP0CB29803U660063 - WP0CB29803U663240
o WP0CB29853S660068 - WP0CB298X3S660227
o WP0ZZZ98Z3U604185
o WP0ZZZ98Z3U640971
o WP0CA29854S620061 - WP0CA29824S621085
o WP0CA298X4U620061 - WP0CA29854U621568
o WP0CB29804S660061 - WP0CB29834S660555
o WP0CB29854U660061 - WP0CB29834U661824
o WP0CA298X5U710067 - WP0CA29815U711852
o WP0CB29885U730069 - WP0CB29835U731310

[Eric G]

Mine had the double row, mine was in failure when I changed it out. I think Porsche took the cheap low road on this settlement. In the eyes of the courts...they made "due diligence" to rectify the problem but they only scratched the surface.

[MBDiagMan]

Originally Posted by ATX_Boxster

Here's a good read from Flat 6 regarding the upgrade installation. Seems like they will give the Box a thorough inspection both pre and post installation of the new bearing as part of their process:

The Flat 6 IMS Bearing Retrofit in Detail - Page 4

As a new owner, I would really want to feel comfortable with my shop before I went ahead with a procedure like this for preventative maintenance. Seems that if the bearing removal or install were botched, (or anything else along the way), then I'd also have things to worry about - and may not even know it.

That link involves some chilling reading in the "when to replace" section. It's easy to see why this is a subject with LOTS of different viewpoints and opinions.

[BoxsterSteve]

Originally Posted by Johnny Danger

I have a 2000 with presumably a dual row.

As is mine; but my dual row bearing was at 3rd stage of failure.
Not sorry I had it changed almost immediately.

[drbodzin]

Just replaced my dual row bearing. It was perfect when I removed it. If I had not already bought the new LN bearing I would I would have just left it in. But I feel much better now that I've addressed it.

[southernstar]

Pothole. not saying that replacing a waterpump as a prophylactic is the same as replacing the IMS bearing - clearly the cost for the former is much lower and the consequences of failure much less serious. If the cost was less and there were no other parts in these engines that can fail and lead to similar consequences, that would be one thing. My mechanic's point, I think, is this: where do you stop?

Brad

[southernstar]

jb92563, I think it is dangerous to look at the serial numbers listed in the settlement to conclude that an engine is a double-row: we know that it excludes cars built prior to May 4, 2001 even though cars built prior to that date can have the single-row bearing. It is also dangerous to look at the Porsche engine serial numbers that are listed in the Porsche parts catalogue as that is the CUTOFF date for dual-row bearings: inotherwords, while engines after that will be single-row, ones before that may also be single-row.

While the safest method of determining whether you have a dual or single row is to remove the transmission and inspect the cover/bearing, it kind of defeats the purpose. Once you have gone that far, you may as well replace the bearing.

What Porsche has made clear is that they did not introduce the single-row bearing when it first introduced the 2.7 and 3.2 engines; rather, it was a mid-2000 'upgrade'. AFter its introduction, they continued to use up their supply of dual-row bearings until that supply was exhausted and hence, for a period in the 2000 and 2001 MY, a car could have either. Presumably the LAST engines to have the dual-row bearing would be those listed in Porsche's parts catalogue :

2.7 engine serial number 12851 (last 5 sequential numbers)
3.2 engine serial number 11237 ( ditto)

I am assuming that the May 4th, 2001 cutoff date for inclusion in the settlement coincides with the installation of those engine numbers - ie., after that date ALL engines had single-row bearings. But who knows?

While Porsche has not given the specific date for the INTRODUCTION of the single-row bearing (apart from it being a mid-2000 change), I have opined in the dual versus single-row thread that it was at some point in the 2000 calendar year, rather than the model year: in Europe, where the car is manufactured, 'model years' are largely irrelevant - what we would call a 2000 MY Porsche is a 1999, if built in 1999.

If I am correct, then we can conclude that no engines manufactured in 1998 will have a dual-row bearing (denoted by a Y in the engine serial number prior to the last 5 sequential numbers).

We can also conclude that engines produced in calendar year 1999 ( denoted by a Z) would also have a dual-row, as they were produced prior to the introduction of the single-row in the year 2000.

Engines produced in calendar year 2000 and 2001 may or may not have a dual-row bearing, up until the serial numbers listed above.

The 2000 MY Boxster had a very long production run - while Porsche usually start production of its next MY in late July or August, production started in February of 1999 at the latest (as that is when the first 2.7's and 3.2's were shown at auto shows and made available for testing). Consequently, production of the 2000 MY Porsches continued for about 18 months until late July or August of 2000. Unless the engine was replaced/rebuilt, the only 2000 Boxsters that should have the single-row bearing, therefore, would be ones with engines manufactured in the year 2000. Some engines built in 2000, of course, will stiill have the dual-row bearing, but it is impossible to ascertain which.

The 2001 model year Boxsters, unless they had an engine built in 1999 installed, can have either bearing until the cut-off point for the dual-row in 2001, at the serial numbers listed above.

Again, I would be interested in hearing if anyone with an engine that was produced in 1998 or 1999, that has not been rebuilt, has a single-row bearing. If I am correct and Porsche was referring to an introduction of the sinlge-row during mid-calendar year 2000, rather than model year, there should be none. If they were referring to mid MY, then likely only the earliest engines (1998 production) would be absolutely safe.

Brad

[EssexPorsche]

Oh well JD,
Best bring the upgrade plan back to life - based on Brad's detailed analysis - you are in the never world my friend.

At least i knew mine was single so the choice was a simple one:dance::dance:

[Perfectlap]

A serviceable bearing should be replaced sooner than later. Good engine design can never accommodate using a sealed bearing where it can be easily prone to failure if proper oil and its duration are not perfectly maintained. This is a question mark with too many multiple owner Porsches. Especially if they followed the factory's dubious recommendations.

Personally, if I'm not the first owner or do not have all of the service records then I'm not waiting until the clutch wears out to replace the IMSB. I'm going to bump up that job because saving a few hundred dollars to max out clutch life is not worth guesstimating that the engine was looked after correctly. And since the IMSB/clutch job has utility -- you get a new clutch that can outlast the typical ownership period, I personally would want to put most of my miles on a new clutch replaced at my expense rather than gifting that to the next owner.

[southernstar]

Perfectlap, surely it depends upon the owner and whether you have a single or double-row bearing, as it dramatically effects the likelihood of failure. You are correct, of course, that the maintenance schedule (and in particular, oil change frequency) also makes a significant difference.

If your clutch is fine and you expect that the current value of your car is quite low (and they certainly seem to be even lower in the UK), many would choose not to install a new clutch and bearing as a prophylactic. Let's face it, if your car is worth only $8-12,000.00, then a clutch/bearing at about $3000.00 is between 25% and 37% of the value of the car. In addition, if you do install it as a prophylactic on a car you expect to sell in the near future, you are still, as you say,' gifting it' to the next owner unless the clutch needs replacement during the course of your ownership. Some original clutches have gone well over 100,000 miles without needing replacement.

Your view makes perfect sense for some, of course. Certainly, if someone is losing sleep over the IMS bearing, by all means either sell the car or get the bearing upgraded. All I and some others have been saying is that, particularly if you have a double-row bearing and, even more so if you have a good maintenance history (and my car has had the oil/filter changed annually at about 5000 miles, or less), then the odds of premature failure are extremely slim.

Brad

[fatmike]

From a purely financial perspective, should you replace the bearing?



Let's say your 2002 S is worth $12K. Odds of bearing blow out (if single row) are 10%. Would the car be worth $3K as a roller? If so, the expected value is:

90% of the time = $12K, 10% of the time $3K = $10,800 + $300 = $11,100.



IF you do replace the bearing, your car will be worth $12,000 100% of the time (or near enough to 100% for our thought exercise). The cost of the bearing is $3500.

So the EV in this case is: $12,000 - $3,500 = $8,500

Unless you believe that you will recover all, or substantially all, of the bearing cost when you sell the car it does not make financial sense. I do not believe that you will get $15,500 when you sell this car because you replace the bearing.

In this scenario, you are MUCH BETTER OFF not replacing your bearing and taking a chance.



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[EssexPorsche]

Unless you are lighting cigars with dead presidents - it still makes for a pretty pricey lawn ornament.

To some, a 986 isn't a cheap beater - its a dream.

Ask the Doc if he expects to get back the price of his restoration? or JD if he is under any illusion that he won't get corn holed on the re-sale of the Dangermobile.

To some, living the 986 dream is worth every penny of preventative maintenance.

I have spent close on £5k (sterling) on my car since January - why???? beacuse i love it and i can. Sure i could upgrade P car, sure i could change brand - but i don't want to. I want to keep my 986 mint and alive.

Anyways - plough your own furrow in life. Do what works for you. If its a simple maths equation the so be it, but i figure emiotion has to come into it somewhere.

[fatmike]

Essex - those are perfectly valid reasons


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[EssexPorsche]

Mike,
Sorry bud - just re-read my post and it reads like i'm having a go at you.
Not the case, just offering the alternative to the financial - hope you were not offended.