Would you have gotten PDK if they offered it on the 986?

[shadrach74]

Originally Posted by pothole

What did I miss?

PDK has all of the components (with some extras) of a traditional manual transmission except for the interface, which is automated...

[pothole]

Originally Posted by shadrach74

PDK has all of the components (with some extras) of a traditional manual transmission except for the interface, which is automated...

And thus it's an automatic.

The "manual" refers to the mode of operation or the "interface" as you put it. Not the design of the components.

Do not think I missed anything.

[Topless]

My heel-toe is reasonably good but I would gladly choose a PDK. Probably on my next car.

[shadrach74]

Originally Posted by pothole

And thus it's an automatic.

The "manual" refers to the mode of operation or the "interface" as you put it. Not the design of the components.

Do not think I missed anything.

So there are no automatics with manual interfaces?

My forehead hurts... You win! Well done.

[pothole]

Originally Posted by shadrach74

So there are no automatics with manual interfaces?

My forehead hurts... You win! Well done.

To be honest, not sure what happens with an old school torque converter when you use the selector change gear.

But re PDK, the answer is simple. There are no manual changes of gears, no manual interface. At most you send a signal to a computer and the computer decides what to do and when.

It's reasonable enough to call it "manual" mode when your pressing buttons to request gear changes from the computer, just for the sake of semantic simplicity. But there's nothing actually manual about the process of changing gears.

What I don't get is why people are so desperate to claim that there's a manual element to PDK.

[shadrach74]

Originally Posted by pothole

To be honest, not sure what happens with an old school torque converter when you use the selector change gear.

But re PDK, the answer is simple. There are no manual changes of gears, no manual interface. At most you send a signal to a computer and the computer decides what to do and when.

It's reasonable enough to call it "manual" mode when your pressing buttons to request gear changes from the computer, just for the sake of semantic simplicity. But there's nothing actually manual about the process of changing gears.

What I don't get is why people are so desperate to claim that there's a manual element to PDK.

The reason is because it has absolutely revolutionized what the average human can do in an automobile and has eliminated all of the draw backs of the traditional automatic. Your fathers slush box it ain't. FYI: there are many manual gear boxes that put a an automated interface between the driver and tranny to select gears, just as there are many automatics that do not...

[pothole]

Originally Posted by shadrach74

The reason is because it has absolutely revolutionized what the average human can do in an automobile and has eliminated all of the draw backs of the traditional automatic. Your fathers slush box it ain't. FYI: there are many manual gear boxes that put a an automated interface between the driver and tranny to select gears, just as there are many automatics that do not...

I totally get that dual clutch is a revolutionary tech. What's that got to do with trying to call it "manual"?

In fact, it's because it's so revolutionary that it makes so little sense to call it manual. it's not remotely manual. It's completely computer controlled.

And no, there are zero manual gearboxes that put an automated interface inbetween the driver and tranny. Those boxes are automatic. They're just not torque converter.

The hint is in the word "manual". If servos and a computer are doing the gear changing, it's not manual.

What you're trying to talk about, at least in a modern context, is a synchromesh gearbox which can have both manual and automatic interfaces.

[Topless]

[Porsche Chick]

@Topless; LOL!

But . . .

I really think everyone is underestimating the "Stomp And Go" fun that is the PDK . . .

[ChrisZang]

Originally Posted by Topless

My heel-toe is reasonably good but I would gladly choose a PDK. Probably on my next car.

See you in Buttonwillow

[Topless]

Originally Posted by Porsche Chick

@Topless; LOL!

But . . .

I really think everyone is underestimating the "Stomp And Go" fun that is the PDK . . .

It's enough to say that the PDK is a revolutionary technology that eliminates most of the flaws with older automatic trans (significant torque losses, slow transitions, finding yourself in the wrong gear, sloppy downshifts etc). If you like it (and I do), buy one. If you don't, buy a stick. But don't knock it until you have tried it.

Chris, I plan to be there and I want a little right-seat time in your new ride.

[ChrisZang]

Originally Posted by Topless

It's enough to say that the PDK is a revolutionary technology that eliminates most of the flaws with older automatic trans (significant torque losses, slow transitions, finding yourself in the wrong gear, sloppy downshifts etc). If you like it (and I do), buy one. If you don't, buy a stick. But don't knock it until you have tried it.

Chris, I plan to be there and I want a little right-seat time in your new ride.

As much right side time as you want my friend...
Looking forward to it

[NoGaBiker]

Originally Posted by pothole

Yeah, I think it's you who doesn't understand how PDK works.

You do realise that when you move that "stick" all you are doing is sending a signal to a computer. Nothing you manually manipulate is of any consequence. You may as well be pressing a small button.

In a manual gearbox, it's the movement of your hand directly connected to mechanisms that deselects one gear and selects another. Same for the clutch, albeit the physical connection is hydraulic.

There is nothing manual about PDK. You press a button, a signal is sent to a computer, it decides what to do. And then it does it.

PDK does not allow for manual changes. It does the changes.

Get it, now?

I get it now no more or less than I did before. Whether the control action is initiated by moving a stick that is attached to a gear box, moving a stick that is attached to electronics that are attached to a gear box, or pushing a button that is attached to a gearbox, the point of "manual control" is this: when you tell the gearbox to do something, it does it, when I say, how I say. If the computer would rather be in 4th and I'd like to be in 6th, I win. It does what I say, immediately. That's manual control. Both by the linguistics definition of the word (as I pointed out so elequently above) and by the notional definition long affixed by automotive junkies such as your- and myself. This is why even though you could "control" a Tiptronic with buttons or a stick, it wasn't a manual -- it took your "suggestion" and eventually got around to going to that gear as long as it didn't really think you shouldn't be there.

I can put my house thermostat on automatic and let it do what it needs to, or I can switch it to manual and take control of the temperature -- all with the same set of buttons talking to the same logic board. I don't have to go down to the furnace room and shovel coal for it to be manual control of the temperature in my house.

And on the opposite side of the spectrum, I have a 68 Cadillac convertible with an automatic TH 400 transmission. There is not the first sign of a logic board or even of a wire going into that transmission. Nothing between me and the transmission that's not mechanical. I can shift it manually with a stick that comes out of the steering wheel -- no buttons. But this does not a manual transmission make. It is an automatic NOT because it has an electronic interface between me and it, but because it doesn't shift with precision, delivering the gear I order up immediately upon my ordering it.

Cheers!

[pothole]

Originally Posted by NoGaBiker

I get it now no more or less than I did before. Whether the control action is initiated by moving a stick that is attached to a gear box, moving a stick that is attached to electronics that are attached to a gear box, or pushing a button that is attached to a gearbox, the point of "manual control" is this: when you tell the gearbox to do something, it does it, when I say, how I say. If the computer would rather be in 4th and I'd like to be in 6th, I win. It does what I say, immediately. That's manual control. Both by the linguistics definition of the word (as I pointed out so elequently above) and by the notional definition long affixed by automotive junkies such as your- and myself. This is why even though you could "control" a Tiptronic with buttons or a stick, it wasn't a manual -- it took your "suggestion" and eventually got around to going to that gear as long as it didn't really think you shouldn't be there.

I can put my house thermostat on automatic and let it do what it needs to, or I can switch it to manual and take control of the temperature -- all with the same set of buttons talking to the same logic board. I don't have to go down to the furnace room and shovel coal for it to be manual control of the temperature in my house.

And on the opposite side of the spectrum, I have a 68 Cadillac convertible with an automatic TH 400 transmission. There is not the first sign of a logic board or even of a wire going into that transmission. Nothing between me and the transmission that's not mechanical. I can shift it manually with a stick that comes out of the steering wheel -- no buttons. But this does not a manual transmission make. It is an automatic NOT because it has an electronic interface between me and it, but because it doesn't shift with precision, delivering the gear I order up immediately upon my ordering it.

Cheers!

Except for the gearbox doesn't change gear "when and how you say" with PDK. You've no control at all over the selection of the gears or the actuation of the clutch. The computer controls everything.

You have no control over how the different parts of the process are orchestrated, how smooth or jerky the change is or anything else. It's no more manual than pressing a button to turn the car on after which it does everything itself.

You have the illusion of manual control because the computer usually agrees that it's OK to change gear when you press the button. But try changing down at 7,000rpm and you'll find out exactly how manual PDK is. Yes, that's a safety feature to protect the engine. But it illustrates that it's the computer that makes the final call over whether to change gear at all, let alone how the gear change is executed.

PDK is an automatic gearbox. Why are people so scared to accept that? It's miles better than a manual in many regards. Why not embrace that?

[NoGaBiker]

Originally Posted by pothole

PDK is an automatic gearbox. Why are people so scared to accept that? Why not embrace that?

Yes, yes, you are right. My fear is behind me. I embrace the truth.

[mikefocke]

Owned 1 stick and 2 TIP transmission mid-engine P-cars. Depending on what traffic was like in my area at the time. 500k in the area, stick. 1,500k, auto. PDK is improved from the TIP so sure I would. Not right for everyone. Your choice has to be right for you. I do note that PDK is expensive, adds value at sale time now, and most cars are now ordered with PDK.

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by Porsche Chick

@Topless; LOL!

But . . .

I really think everyone is underestimating the "Stomp And Go" fun that is the PDK . . .

did you own a manual sports car before going with the PDK?

That can influence your perspective a bit. It's easier not to miss something that you didn't have to lose in the first place.

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by pothole

You have the illusion of manual control because the computer usually agrees that it's OK to change gear when you press the button. But try changing down at 7,000rpm and you'll find out exactly how manual PDK is. Yes, that's a safety feature to protect the engine. But it illustrates that it's the computer that makes the final call over whether to change gear at all, let alone how the gear change is executed.

very interesting. I guess it makes sense to me looking back now at the first PDK's which had a very distinct "lag". It was addressed in the S models for some cars where I believe drivers, Cayman S specifically, reported that the gear change was much prompter. I guess you could say that lag highlighted the dynamic, as you point out, of the driver "requesting" the shift, the computer mulling it over, and then obliging the human a delayed shift. Wholly unacceptable in a sports car imho. Since then, PDK apparently has been refined to the point where you've been duped into believing that you are actually shifting the gear because the computer is much better at creating that "virtual reality" of sorts. Purely mechanical vs. automated.
Thanks for illustrating this big change in driving that few have really fully considered.

[Porsche Chick]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

did you own a manual sports car before going with the PDK?

That can influence your perspective a bit. It's easier not to miss something that you didn't have to lose in the first place.

Oh, ye of little faith . . .

I drove a manual Celica for six years. I loved that car.

BUT there is a big difference between a manual Toyota and a manual Porsche. You guys might not realize it, but the Porsche clutch is a monster. :troll:

It is really hard to depress, if you don't have muscular legs. It can be very fatiguing for a woman. I've had this conversation with a friend of mine (who bought herself a new 911), and she opted for the PDK. She test drove a manual, and after about an hour, her knee ached. I've driven hubby's manual 911, and it's just a bit difficult after a while. Which drains the enjoyment right out of it.

I've also had the PDK versus manual conversation with hubby, and he wouldn't give up a manual if you paid him. I think it's just a personal preference thing.

I said it once, and I'll say it again; when hubby and I race, he's over there shifting like mad, while I'm putting on lipstick. He only beats me by less than half a car, even with all the extra HP. Oh, and mine doesn't "lag".

[stephen wilson]

If they made a car with 3 pedals for fully manual operation, in addition to an "auto" mode, where the computer controls a traditional clutch, I'd be in heaven. Stop & Go traffic, or feeling lazy, just stick it in auto.

When I'm in the market again I'll try a PDK, but I don't think it will sway me from a 3-pedal car. As mentioned, executing a perfect heel-toe downshift is just heaven to me!