IMS class action suit

[Ghostrider 310]

Originally Posted by landrovered

If the German Porsche engineers thought that the IMS was a major defect they would have changed the design in a millisecond and not kept it though the transition from 986/996 to 987/997.

Why are the Europeans not all up in arms about this? They have higher expectations than us and are right there to raise hell. Nope no noise, just the Americans BMC-ing on the internet.

Not necessarily, the bean counters have a lot to do with these decisions, I saw plenty of "let it ride" fortune 100 behavior, in a business line with lives at risk. The game is to always raise profits if that pursuit has a nexus with doing what's best for customers it's likely serendipity. When a company does not even return written correspondence on a car dead at less than 30K they simply don't care about it and their actions echo that fact loudly.

[landrovered]

Originally Posted by Ghostrider 310

Not necessarily, the bean counters have a lot to do with these decisions, I saw plenty of "let it ride" fortune 100 behavior. The game is to always raise profits if that pursuit has a nexus with doing what's best for customers it's likely serendipity. When a company does not even return written correspondence on a car dead at less than 30K they simply don't care about it and their actions state that fact loudly.

The transition from 986 to 987 was more than a mid model upgrade. If there had been a class action worthy problem it would have been addressed ( pushed by the bean counters to reduce liability). I am perfectly aware of the propensity toward the Peter Principal in business organizations.

[dewolf]

Originally Posted by landrovered

If the German Porsche engineers thought that the IMS was a major defect they would have changed the design in a millisecond and not kept it though the transition from 986/996 to 987/997.

If this was a known failure after the manufacture of the engine and it did fail during r&d testing then these failures would have been calculated into the production costs. A cetain failure rate is expected by all manufacturers of most products. How they deal with said failures ia a different matter entirley.

[Ghostrider 310]

The lack of a lawsuit should not be the barometer of what's ethically correct. Kodak wasn't sued when their "starry night" emulsion scivings caused misdiagnosis of early breast cancers. Somewhere in this world was a breast removed because of this? You can count on it......

[landrovered]

So this is an ethical question?

Bullcrap this is a bunch of folks who want Porsche to repair their cars for free or near free even thought they are the third owner or even purchased the car with a blown IMS. People that were first owners and were good dealership customers did get relief in some cases mostly as a good will gesture on the part of the dealers.

Porsche at its worst is 10 times more professional and ethical than most other car manufacturers. If you don't believe me, buy a Land Rover and experience their bedside manner.

[Ghostrider 310]

Originally Posted by landrovered

So this is an ethical question?

Bullcrap this is a bunch of folks who want Porsche to repair their cars for free or near free even thought they are the third owner or even purchased the car with a blown IMS. People that were first owners and were good dealership customers did get relief in some cases mostly as a good will gesture on the part of the dealers.

Porsche at its worst is 10 times more professional and ethical than most other car manufacturers. If you don't believe me, buy a Land Rover and experience their bedside manner.

Well you know what opinions are like and everyone has one. Porsche cars are typically babied, no winters, chronic crackhead like oil changes far before the intervals. People going through oil filters like their own feces looking for a disease. The cars are dawdled on and should last at least 100K, that's just my opinion which stinks like everyone else's. If Seinfeld blows a motor I'm sure it's tended too, for the rest the joke is on them, especially on decade old cars the company would rather forget.

PS Nobody said fix it free but a blatant no reply is the "bull" not the customers seeking council on motors blown under 30K or more laughable, replacement motors blowing up, PA thetic.

[landrovered]

There are too many manufacturers to name that have gone to timing belts, a broken timing belt will cause extensive damage to an engine. Many break before their normal service life is reached but I don't see folks lining up to sue them.

[Ghostrider 310]

You might have a more salient argument if Porsche took care of all the original purchasers. It's also worthwhile to note the cars were not Escorts priced at about 15K, in fact the engine replacement is more than a new escort complete. You can make a case for it being why Saab is out of business but every little thing that crapped on my dad's three Saab cars was replaced free, a radiator after 30,000..

[CenterIsl]

Originally Posted by Ghostrider 310

You might have a more salient argument if Porsche took care of all the original purchasers.

They didn't? I dunno, it's been a while since someone like that has popped up, but my vague recollection is that if you were 1) the original owner, and 2) dealer maintained, that even if you were out of warranty (by maybe a year or two) that they might offset some / most of the cost.

But if you honestly feel that Porsche should furnish a new engine to a 3rd (or more) owner of a vehicle that is anywhere from a couple to a dozen years out of warranty, when any of those owners might have "upgraded" their oil to their synthetic of choice (in retrospect, all those oil threads have disappeared - maybe that's one of the good things about the IMSB issue - people have stopped trying to "innovate" the lubrication), bolted on the latest shiny intake / exhaust, chipped the car for better performance (because Porsche doesn't understand how to make their engines perform), and flogged the car mercilously (nobody confesse to overrevs but somehow the OBD magically shows this, must be another conspiracy), then I think it's fair to say that you will be disappointed.

FWIW, my Lexus dealer has performed out-of-warranty fixes on my GX470 free or at a significantly reduced rate, and each time they've requested that I not share the details on a public forum. So I can easily imagine that if Porsche NA and/or the local Porsche dealer did something above and beyond their warranty obligation, we might never hear about it.

[NoGaBiker]

I was peripherally connected to the GM Exploding Side Saddle Gas Tank litigation 15 years ago or so. People were getting blown up or burned alive in their GMC pickups because of a faulty design that more than one GM engineer had warned about in writing. Unfortunately, management ran the numbers and decided that a recall of however many million trucks were affected would be much more expensive than the cumulative cost of the litigation of the small number of people who would be burned to death in the trucks.

I say all this to say that juries are very impressed by such revelations, and tend to reward plaintiffs rather handsomely (to the tune of 9 figures in the Shannon Mosely case, including $101M in punatives!) But when a bunch of "rich" guys get stuck having to buy engines for their out-of-warranty Porsches, that's a lot tougher sell. Bank on it: a class-action or an individual lawsuit against PAG is a non-starter.

[Ghostrider 310]

No lawyer here, just saying that when Kodak was sued they used the council they kept on their own staff to dissuade further action and mute the complainers. As for the engines I'm quite sure when a 986 is sitting on a DEALER lot they don't make any mention that a thousand miles from now if it explodes you is on " yur own", seems like that might thwart sales. I'll go to the grave saying they owed everyone at the very least a communication in response to the problem being reported.

[NoGaBiker]

Originally Posted by Ghostrider 310

No lawyer here, just saying that when Kodak was sued they used the council they kept on their own staff to dissuade further action and mute the complainers.

Not sure what you're talking about (Kodak is probably sued weekly, or were when they were a relevant company), but what I'm pretty sure they didn't do is go into a courtroom and try to represent themselves in class-action litigation. It's kinda like asking the service writer (who knows a lot about Porsches and is very familiar with what the parts are and has maybe helped a tech do an oil change, and is excellent at managing the work of the techs) to perform a G50 transmission rebuild on an 88 Carrera 3.2 with his own two hands.

[landrovered]

If you want Porsche support on a used car the purchase a Certified Pre Owned car with an extended warranty. If you bought from a private individual and opted not to purchase an aftermarket warranty ( there are many and they cover oiled parts) then you have made the choice to roll the dice on future repairs, how does that savings jingle in your pocket now?

[Ghostrider 310]

Originally Posted by landrovered

If you want Porsche support on a used car the purchase a Certified Pre Owned car with an extended warranty. If you bought from a private individual and opted not to purchase an aftermarket warranty ( there are many and they cover oiled parts) then you have made the choice to roll the dice on future repairs, how does that savings jingle in your pocket now?

Extended warranties are for chumps, in the long run you do better without them. Again I refer you to the dealer scenario, if the dealer says "I'd get the extended warranty" then a wise buyer should check the ol google, eff the car fax. I have no plans on extending the factory warranty, either it makes it or it doesn't the coin I'm jangling is the warranty cost I squirreled away for repairs.

[landrovered]

Originally Posted by Ghostrider 310

Extended warranties are for chumps, in the long run you do better without them. Again I refer you to the dealer scenario, if the dealer says "I'd get the extended warranty" then a wise buyer should check the ol google, eff the car fax. I have no plans on extending the factory warranty, either it makes it or it doesn't the coin I'm jangling is the warranty cost I squirreled away for repairs.

From another website

"I do have an aftermarket extended warranty with no deductible. It cost me $2700. I received a new remanufactured engine that, including labor charges, would have cost me $12,000. Buying the extended warranty was one of the smartest things I've ever done."

Some folks here might heed this guy's advice.

[cbbepop]

If the posts are referring to the extended warranty I mentioned, I do not mean the type of warranty that you purchase once your factory warranty runs out. Those are useless, more than half the time they don't cover it and the other half when they do cover it - you still have a to pay upfront then they will reimburse you later.

The extended warranty I was referring to that Porsche should have implemented a long time ago focusing on the IMS alone 100k or 10 year is like the warranties that Audi and BMW puts out.

For example, all Audi B7 chassis whether its A4, S4, quattro or FWD uses a cam follower in their HPFP. I'm not even sure what it does but the issue is that the coating on this "cup" wears out around 40-50,000 miles. Once it does, the entire HPFP is likely damaged with repair costs of around $2000-4000. This was a known issue to the Audi community and many new car buyers who frequent Audi forums were advised to go and swap out the cam follower regardless if its broken after a certain mileage as a preventive measure.

So Audi put out a no charge warranty saying regardless if its first owner or not, if the cam follower breaks then they will fix it. But it has to break first is the catch. Furthermore and I tip my hat off to Audi, the warranty says they will reimburse anyone who has already replaced the cam out of pocket prior to this warranty being announced provided the customer can show proof of work done and receipt from an indie shop. Amazing customer care.

[Ghostrider 310]

Noga I can't be sure about all cases but they did use their own lawyers in certain disputes, others I'm sure they farmed out.

[linklaw]

Originally Posted by Ghostrider 310

Noga I can't be sure about all cases but they did use their own lawyers in certain disputes, others I'm sure they farmed out.

I currently have several lawsuits pending against Ford Motor Company and they are using outside counsel. Over the years, I have sued Alfa Romeo, Volkswagen, Ford and Chrysler and they all used outside counsel. Of course, these cases were not class action lawsuits, but if the manufacturers are using (by my experience) outside counsel for smaller cases, I assume they would hire outside counsel for the larger ones as well.

[Ghostrider 310]

The single highest profit item I ever sold was the extended warranty, bar none. I decided to throw the dice, my engine has no IMS and so far runs like a Swiss watch. I like my odds for not having a second failure if I'm wrong I'll deal with it that day.

[CenterIsl]

Originally Posted by Ghostrider 310

The single highest profit item I ever sold was the extended warranty, bar none.

FWIW, Warranty Direct included the Boxster in their list of "Top 100 Most Reliable Used Cars of the Past Decade" (albeit at position 100!): The 100 most reliable cars of the last decade (in order)