IMS Failure - Need Advice

[Perfectlap]

another 550 that didn't make it to 40K miles. Amazing.

Hyundai slaps a 10 year warranty on their cars and they cost nowhere near what that 550 Anniversary, super, duper, all fancy trim available Boxster did.

Didn't even make it to the 8 year mark. A car presumably designed and builit with long term ownership like so many other special edition Porsches.


Porsche, when you read these stories, and we all know you do, are you embarrased? Your company is making record revenues and profits from Cayennes and Panameras globally. Yet a Korean econobox car company stands by their cars more than you do?

[thstone]

I would suggest that the following statements reflect the current state of affairs;

• Nearly all current 986 owners are aware of the IMSB issue and know about their options to address it (if they desire).
  
  
• Nearly all 986 buyers know about the IMS issue if they do even the most precursory investigation into Boxster ownership prior to buying the car.
  
  
• Porsche is well aware of the issue and isn't going to fix it or address it.
  
  
• Lawyers are well aware of the issue and do not see a path to pursue a legal solution.
  
  
• Independent experts are well aware of the issue and are not motivated to participate in the legal process.
  
  
• More companies will see the IMSB situation as an opportunity for profit. Some will be trustworthy, some will not.
  
  
• With sellers, buyers, maintainers, and experts all aware of the issue, the market price of a used 986 has already adjusted for the perceived risk associated with Boxster ownership and the IMSB issue.
  
  
• The prices for used 996's have also adjusted accordingly.
  
  
• This situation is unlikely to change for the foreseeable future.

[BYprodriver]

Originally Posted by thstone

I would suggest that the following statements reflect the current state of affairs;

• Nearly all current 986 owners are aware of the IMSB issue and know about their options to address it (if they desire).
  
  
• Nearly all 986 buyers know about the IMS issue if they do even the most precursory investigation into Boxster ownership prior to buying the car.
  
  
• Porsche is well aware of the issue and isn't going to fix it or address it.
  
  
• Lawyers are well aware of the issue and do not see a path to pursue a legal solution.
  
  
• Independent experts are well aware of the issue and are not motivated to participate in the legal process.
  
  
• More companies will see the IMSB situation as an opportunity for profit. Some will be trustworthy, some will not.
  
  
• With sellers, buyers, maintainers, and experts all aware of the issue, the market price of a used 986 has already adjusted for the perceived risk associated with Boxster ownership and the IMSB issue.
  
  
• The prices for used 996's have also adjusted accordingly.
  
  
• This situation is unlikely to change for the foreseeable future.

I agree with all but the 1st line.

I believe the LN IMSB is a permanent solution to the IMSB issue & the cost to implement the solution is offset by the depreciation the original issue caused if you are purchasing a 986/996 now.

[2003S]

Originally Posted by BYprodriver

I believe the LN IMSB is a permanent solution to the IMSB issue

it appears that Mr. Raby would disagree with that per his "IMS Solution", references. It would seem that some anticipate the LN IMSB, while very solid, may not be a "final" solution to the problem.

[BYprodriver]

Originally Posted by 2003S

it appears that Mr. Raby would disagree with that per his "IMS Solution", references. It would seem that some anticipate the LN IMSB, while very solid, may not be a "final" solution to the problem.

appearances can be deceiving, my theory assumes proper installation & maintenance.

[thstone]

The following is from the LN Engineering website. You can deicde for yourself if LN is saying that their bearing is a permanent replacement or not.

That said, we've put the best bearings we can in our IMS Retrofit™ Kits and IMS Upgrades to give your M96 the best fighting chance for a long service life. However, with any mechanical system, we do expect there to be failures. With thousands IMS Upgrade and IMS Retrofit™ bearings in service, we have experienced zero failures of intermediate shafts with our triple bearing IMS Upgrade and similarly zero failures of the dual row bearing IMS Retrofit™s. However, of all three revisions of the intermediate shaft used by Porsche, the single row bearing found on some 2000-2001 and all 2002-2005 models is the most flawed and even with our ceramic bearing, we have had five engine failures total where the single row ceramic bearing was found to have failed (although not conclusively as the cause of the engine failure, given there are dozens of known modes of failure and secondly, these are open bearings susceptible to damage from foreign object debris). Even so, we have over a 99.9% success rate in the 3+ years our bearings have been in service.

It may be advisable to consider the IMS a service item, like a timing belt in many modern cars. Seeing that we started to see more MY05 engines with IMS failures in late 2009 as well as failures in MY06 (with revised 3rd gen bearing) in late 2010, that may suggest that bearing replacement (or inspection at bare minimum) should be considered as part of the normal maintenance every 4-5 years or 50-60k miles, maybe even sooner with the case of the single row bearing.

[pothole]

Originally Posted by thstone

[LIST][*]Nearly all current 986 owners are aware of the IMSB issue and know about their options to address it (if they desire).

I disagree. For better or worse, the Box is a mass market car. Most owners don't have a clue. I'd be surprised if as many as 3/10 Boxster owners had any clue about the IMS bearing or even that their car has such a thing.

[BYprodriver]

Originally Posted by thstone

The following is from the LN Engineering website. You can deicde for yourself if LN is saying that their bearing is a permanent replacement or not.

That said, we've put the best bearings we can in our IMS Retrofit™ Kits and IMS Upgrades to give your M96 the best fighting chance for a long service life. However, with any mechanical system, we do expect there to be failures. With thousands IMS Upgrade and IMS Retrofit™ bearings in service, we have experienced zero failures of intermediate shafts with our triple bearing IMS Upgrade and similarly zero failures of the dual row bearing IMS Retrofit™s. However, of all three revisions of the intermediate shaft used by Porsche, the single row bearing found on some 2000-2001 and all 2002-2005 models is the most flawed and even with our ceramic bearing, we have had five engine failures total where the single row ceramic bearing was found to have failed (although not conclusively as the cause of the engine failure, given there are dozens of known modes of failure and secondly, these are open bearings susceptible to damage from foreign object debris). Even so, we have over a 99.9% success rate in the 3+ years our bearings have been in service.

It may be advisable to consider the IMS a service item, like a timing belt in many modern cars. Seeing that we started to see more MY05 engines with IMS failures in late 2009 as well as failures in MY06 (with revised 3rd gen bearing) in late 2010, that may suggest that bearing replacement (or inspection at bare minimum) should be considered as part of the normal maintenance every 4-5 years or 50-60k miles, maybe even sooner with the case of the single row bearing.

LN Knows better than to claim the LN IMSB is a permanent solution, but that in no way diminishes the quality of the part.

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by pothole

I disagree. For better or worse, the Box is a mass market car. Most owners don't have a clue. I'd be surprised if as many as 3/10 Boxster owners had any clue about the IMS bearing or even that their car has such a thing.

I have to agree. In talking to my mechanic about the number of IMS bearings they've upgraded (LOTS) it seemed to me like most were adding it to their clutch replacement after being advised by the mechanic. Otherwise, and like most who visit a Porsche dealer for new clutch, they were clueless of the issue.

The other issue I have to disagree about is that failures are now priced into market prices. I believe we're only seeing the start of IMS failures.
986/987/996's are now entering that point where average mileage is starting to climb well north 50K. The cars are changing hands from folks who didn't drive the car every day to buyers who are driving the cars far more frequently which only speeds up the demise of vulnerable IMS cars. The lower the prices for Boxster go from simple price depreciation, the more people will buy these cars, drive them hard and many will not consider the problems that have been cooking from oil change intervals that were inadequate, Porsche approved oils that were inadquate and infrequent driving from the previous owner which allowed seals to dry out and become brittle.

[Jake Raby]

The IMS Solution is the answer to the permanent IMS retrofit.
Thats the entire reason we have developed it. BUT even the IMS Solution can be serviced in the future if someone wanted to and its actually easier than the current retrofit or OEM bearing.

Until a major design change is made the IMS bearing will remain a component that requires periodic maintenance. With the IMSR now 4 years old we are seeing engines being "serviced" already.

Put plainly a total overkill, ceramic composite hybrid roller bearing is the best "retrofit" available that utilizes the original bearing design. The solution has taken us 3 years to develop and we have broken a TON of stuff doing it.. BUT the best part is every time it failed in initial development the engine was NEVER compromised by collateral damages.. No foreign object debris, no valve/ piston contact and no valve timing deviations. It is designed from a "fail safe" aspect and thats exactly what it has proven and I have documented. One failure occurred at WOT 7,200 RPM against the rev limiter and the engine was not compromised.... I was on the throttle when it happened. Version 1 lasted 11 hours, version 2 lasted one minute, version 3 lasted 48 hours (never failed, just excessive wear), version 4 lasted 40 hours (no failure, more wear than version 3) and we are on the current version 5 with flawless performance through small changes made to the components and processes.

We are testing it now for compatibility with variables as the final frontier before release.. Don't expect to see it until 2014, it'll take that long to rack up the mileage on the beta testers with all the variables employed, get the patent protection wrapped up and develop the kits and tools for installation.

Collateral damage from IMSB failures are what kills engines the worst.

[rp17]

MB sorry to see this happen to you and all the others that have this misfortune. I applaud the efforts of Jake and LN for the upgrades we have available. But putting in a brand new engine at a cost of 15-20k is ridiculous!!!!! You can buy another car for far less in most cases. New engine has a few more upgrades etc etc but how did it go from 5-7k to 20k? Is this a move from Porshe to wipe these cars completely off the road?

[jacabean]

Is it me or does it seem like a lot of 550 cars blow up ? If these motors suck that bad why do I see so many high mileage cars for sale . lots with 125K or more . i recently saw a 97 boxster for sale with 175k on it and i doubt it had its IMS replaced. It is a fact that they all have the potential to blow but explain all the high mileage cars that are still running? If my car makes it 100k without blowing I will be fine with that even if it blows at 101K because at that point they are not worth **************** anyway !

[Overdrive]

Originally Posted by rp17

MB sorry to see this happen to you and all the others that have this misfortune. I applaud the efforts of Jake and LN for the upgrades we have available. But putting in a brand new engine at a cost of 15-20k is ridiculous!!!!! You can buy another car for far less in most cases. New engine has a few more upgrades etc etc but how did it go from 5-7k to 20k? Is this a move from Porshe to wipe these cars completely off the road?

I believe we're talking about an engine that costs $5-7k if you buy it through some other means, probably around $12-15k if you buy it from Porsche, and something knocking on the door of $20k if you both buy the engine from Porsche and have them install it.

[johnsimion]

Originally Posted by jacabean

Is it me or does it seem like a lot of 550 cars blow up ? If these motors suck that bad why do I see so many high mileage cars for sale . lots with 125K or more . i recently saw a 97 boxster for sale with 175k on it and i doubt it had its IMS replaced. It is a fact that they all have the potential to blow but explain all the high mileage cars that are still running? If my car makes it 100k without blowing I will be fine with that even if it blows at 101K because at that point they are not worth **************** anyway !

Nobody ever said the motors suck. There are two inescapable facts here, one is that some of these motors last forever, and the other is that some of these motors blow up unexpectedly and at an early age. From these two facts, there are two kinds of people:

(1) people who look at the odds of the engine grenading, and think it will never happen to them, and if it does, they love the car so much they'll just buy a new engine and screw the cost, and

(2) people who look at the odds and see a significant risk that the engine in their $50K car could grenade at any time, and don't love the car so much that they feel like they should have a risk of having to pay another five figures to keep it running.

It's an emotional issue and I'm trying my best not to be emotional. I don't think either group is "wrong." There are too many factors that control what group you are in: your personality type, how much you like the car, what you believe about the likelihood of the engine blowing up, how much $$$ you have available and your willingness to spend it on repairs, etc. Personally I am a pessimistic, cheapskate worrywart with no extra cash, it pisses me off that there is even a remote possibility that the engine might grenade the day I'm off my warranty, I have had nothing but rotten experiences with the local dealer, and to top matters off, where I drive there is so much traffic I'm not even enjoying the car all that much. So that tells you where I stand, but other people are in different situations and I can respect the fact that they have different attitudes.

[jdiba]

Johnsimion, assuming you are referring to the IMS issue there's a 3rd group of people. Those who are willing to apply the IMS fix to their cars to eliminate at least IMS-related engine destruction. Sadly there is also a 4th group. The group of people who unfortunately no nothing of this issue. And so they are never made aware of the existence of a fix either and their choice to decide to apply it.

[rp17]

Thanks for trying to answer my question. And I am kind of familiar with those numbers. But I was thinking along the lines of Jakes quote 5-7k for a NEW engine. Some where along the line it more than doubled in price. Don't want to start another debate and take this thread way off track.

[QUOTE=Jake Raby;293582]Look, when we started developing the solutions to these problems we were laughed at for even disassembling one of the engines. In those days a brand new engine cost 5-7K and it was considered a total waste of time to even think about repairing one...

[steve14623]

My 2005 had a catastophic IMS failure at 29k miles. At the last oil change at 28K miles no issues seen in the filter, no metal shavings. Cost for a replacement engine with 40K miles $8800, cost to instal (not dealer) $4000.

[BruceH]

^^^Ouch!

[CK25]

Originally Posted by Mark Beardsley

I have a 2004 Boxster S, 550 Spyder Anni Edition, with 32K miles. I purchased the car less than 12 months ago.

The IMS bearing went out with no warning, so now the engine is toast.
Porsche USA will not help.
After driving for 40+ years and 25+ cars later, this is the 1st car I have owned that had an engine failure.

I need help to determine what my options are?
Has this happened to anyone and what did you end up doing?

Help !!

Mbeardo

I feel your pain. I have a 2003 Boxster with 65K miles and the same thing just happended to mine. This is the second engine for the car as the first one was replaced when the car had 13K miles. That was replaced due to a failed lifter. I am thinking I will sell the car to a salvage yard as the cheapest quote I have received for the installation of a used engine is $8,900. What did you end up doing with yours?

[CK25]

I feel your pain. I have a 2003 Boxster with 65K miles and the same thing just happended to mine. This is the second engine for the car as the first one was replaced when the car had 13K miles. That was replaced due to a failed lifter. I am thinking I will sell the car to a salvage yard as the cheapest quote I have received for the installation of a used engine is $8,900. What did you end up doing with yours?