IMS Failure is not a Myth.

[thstone]

Originally Posted by Series9

Those of you who think this is a 3% thing are dreaming.

Well, no one thinks that the IMS failure is a myth. Its real and it happens. No doubt about it.

However, with over 200,000 Boxsters sold, if the failure rate is 5% or greater then there should be something like 10,000+ cars failed.

LN hasn't sold anywhere close to 10,000 replacement bearings. Sure, maybe some people part out the car rather than repair it but then you also have to take into account that some large percentage of LN bearing sales go to cars that have never had a bearing failure in the first place (preventative replacement). Other owners might find a salvage engine from a car that was totaled in an accident but there aren't 10,000 of those either. And last, if the numbers were that high then the aftermarket/eBay would also be flooded with failed engine Boxsters and we just don't see any of this happening.

The only conclusion is that the engine failure rate is much less then 5% (or failed Boxsters are with all of the socks that disappear from the dryer).

[Series9]

Originally Posted by thstone

With over 200,000 Boxsters sold, if the failure rate is 5% or greater then there should be something like 10,000+ cars failed.

LN hasn't sold anywhere close to 10,000 replacement bearings. Sure, maybe some people part out the car rather than repair it but then you also have to take into account that some large percentage of LN bearing sales go to cars that have never had a bearing failure in the first place (preventative replacement).

With more than 10,000 cars suffering failed engines, the aftermarket/eBay would also be flooded with failed engine Boxsters and we just don't see that.

The only conclusion is that the engine failure rate is much less then 5% (or failed Boxsters are with all of the socks that disappear from the dryer).

As the owner of an independent Porsche shop, I have to respectfully disagree.

This single VIN has experienced TWO failures in 118k miles.

All I can report is what I see. What I see is between 10 and 20 percent.

[NoGaBiker]

Originally Posted by Series9

As the owner of an independent Porsche shop, I have to respectfully disagree.

This single VIN has experienced TWO failures in 118k miles.

All I can report is what I see. What I see is between 10 and 20 percent.

While I respect your expertise as a Porsche mechanic (an expertise I absolutely do not share) I have to ask you to respect mine as a statistician. And I have to say this doesn't make any sense.

I'm not saying it's NOT 10-20 percent; I'm only saying that unless all 200,000 Boxsters are regularly serviced at your shop, you can't possibly have any idea what percentage of the total Boxster population is affected by IMS woes. Yes, perhaps 20% of the Boxsters you see have IMS failure. But is your clientele a representative sampling? Perhaps you have a reputation as a great IMS bearing expert, so everybody within 100 miles of you who has an IMS failure comes to see you. Then you would be seeing 100% of the problem cars in your area, and every other shop would be seeing 0% of the problem cars. (I'm exaggerating for emphasis.) So if we asked them, the failure rate is 0%, and if we ask you, it's a huge number.

I went to Jim Ellis Porsche last year to ask about an LN install on my '04. They are LN authorized installers. I was basically saying, "Tell me I need to do this and I'll give you $3000 or so to do it." The Service Writer talked with me a long time. He had been there 4.5 years. In that time they had dealt with 5 M96s with failed IMS bearings, and two of them were late model 997s. His words in conclusion? "If I was buying an 03 or newer Boxster right now there's no way on earth I'd have the IMS replaced unless the car was showing signs of needing it."

So your two stories are wildly different. I don't believe either of you is lying or even leaving part of the truth out. I believe neither of you has enough of the story to draw any sort of statistically relevant data.

thanks,

[smshirk]

Originally Posted by NoGaBiker

While I respect your expertise as a Porsche mechanic (an expertise I absolutely do not share) I have to ask you to respect mine as a statistician. And I have to say this doesn't make any sense.

I'm not saying it's NOT 10-20 percent; I'm only saying that unless all 200,000 Boxsters are regularly serviced at your shop, you can't possibly have any idea what percentage of the total Boxster population is affected by IMS woes. Yes, perhaps 20% of the Boxsters you see have IMS failure. But is your clientele a representative sampling? Perhaps you have a reputation as a great IMS bearing expert, so everybody within 100 miles of you who has an IMS failure comes to see you. Then you would be seeing 100% of the problem cars in your area, and every other shop would be seeing 0% of the problem cars. (I'm exaggerating for emphasis.) So if we asked them, the failure rate is 0%, and if we ask you, it's a huge number.

I went to Jim Ellis Porsche last year to ask about an LN install on my '04. They are LN authorized installers. I was basically saying, "Tell me I need to do this and I'll give you $3000 or so to do it." The Service Writer talked with me a long time. He had been there 4.5 years. In that time they had dealt with 5 M96s with failed IMS bearings, and two of them were late model 997s. His words in conclusion? "If I was buying an 03 or newer Boxster right now there's no way on earth I'd have the IMS replaced unless the car was showing signs of needing it."

So your two stories are wildly different. I don't believe either of you is lying or even leaving part of the truth out. I believe neither of you has enough of the story to draw any sort of statistically relevant data.

thanks,

The service manager at that same dealership told the prospective buyer calling to schedule a PPI of my 2000 996 with 65k miles that my car wouldn't last another 5 to 10k miles before the IMS bearing failed, but we can put you into a CPO 997 for 2.5 times the money. He didn't buy my car, but the guy who did over two years ago is still going strong. He uses the same indy I do anbd he hasn't had an IMS failure. I changed the oil every 5k miles just out of old habits, not knowing it would eventually probably be the reason I haven't had a failure. My point to that is you can't trust Jim Ellis Porsche for anything.

Jim Ellis replaced a lot of M96 engines under warranty. Every Porsche dealer did. Porsche and the dealers got really good in turning around the engines as rebuilds and this to cars all with less than 50k miles. I've been driving M96 cars since 99 and I know a lot of people that had them fail, although I haven't had one go yet, and my 986S has one of Jake Raby's engines, so I'm not worried about it failing.

Porsche actually has good numbers but they aren't sharing. You can bet their statistical models indicated a serious issue or they would not have redesigned the IMS over and over and over until finally eliminating it altogether 12 years after the first of the water pumpers hit the streets.

[MileHighBoxster]

Originally Posted by Series9

As the owner of an independent Porsche shop, I have to respectfully disagree.

This single VIN has experienced TWO failures in 118k miles.

All I can report is what I see. What I see is between 10 and 20 percent.

That is not only false, but irresponsible. My dealership, the largest/bussiest in the state, has never seen one. I guarantee they sell and service considerably more Porsches than any independent shop. You only see vehicles needing service. At 10-20% that would mean over 100,000 IMS engine failures between 1997 and 2007 and that is crazy talk. On this forum, with a high percentage of used Boxsters, we don't have anywhere near 2% and these are Boxster's only. You sir are incorrect.

[schnellman]

Originally Posted by MileHighBoxster

..... My dealership, the largest/busiest in the state, has never seen one. I guarantee they sell and service considerably more Porsches than any independent shop. You only see vehicles needing service. At 10-20% that would mean over 100,000 IMS engine failures between 1997 and 2007 and that is crazy talk. On this forum, with a high percentage of used Boxsters, we don't have anywhere near 2% and these are Boxster's only.

Thank you Mile High!! Finally, the voice of reason.

[Bengalfan]

I have a 2000 base, w/ 5-sp, and was looking to convert to a tip, so when I saw an '03 "S" tip at a local NWO auto dealer, I stopped to check it out. Had ~65k on it. Started it up and it sounded like lifters clapping, turned it off almost immediately.
What does the IMS sound like when it start to goes out?
This dealer (not Porsche) came back to me couple days later and told me he "drove it for 15-20 minutes and the sound went away".
I asked him was he nuts to drive it with that noise even 5 minutes would be crazy - and no, I'm not interested even dropping the $$ 3k.

[Perfectlap]

Two failed IMS in the same 911 engine?

Wow. Is that like getting attacked by a great white shark on Coney Island twice


Questions to anyone:

1-Have there been any recent IMS failures of LN IMS unit?

2-Have there been unusually high IMS failures in BSR/BSX Boxster spec racing?
I think of these cars because they are usually driven hard but not driven frequently, they must sit for long intervals.

[Jager]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

Two failed IMS in the same 911 engine?

Wow. Is that like getting attacked by a great white shark on Coney Island twice


Questions to anyone:

1-Have there been any recent IMS failures of LN IMS unit?

2-Have there been unusually high IMS failures in BSR/BSX Boxster spec racing?
I think of these cars because they are usually driven hard but not driven frequently, they must sit for long intervals.

See Jake's post on this thread:
http://986forum.com/forums/general-discussions/33092-another-ims-solution.html

[maj75]

Originally Posted by MileHighBoxster

That is not only false, but irresponsible. My dealership, the largest/bussiest in the state, has never seen one. I guarantee they sell and service considerably more Porsches than any independent shop. You only see vehicles needing service. At 10-20% that would mean over 100,000 IMS engine failures between 1997 and 2007 and that is crazy talk. On this forum, with a high percentage of used Boxsters, we don't have anywhere near 2% and these are Boxster's only. You sir are incorrect.

The small shop I go to has 12 failed IMS bearings sitting on their counter, maybe people just can't afford to have the work done at your dealership?

[silver arrow]

Originally Posted by thstone

Well, no one thinks that the IMS failure is a myth. Its real and it happens. No doubt about it.

However, with over 200,000 Boxsters sold, if the failure rate is 5% or greater then there should be something like 10,000+ cars failed.

LN hasn't sold anywhere close to 10,000 replacement bearings. Sure, maybe some people part out the car rather than repair it but then you also have to take into account that some large percentage of LN bearing sales go to cars that have never had a bearing failure in the first place (preventative replacement). Other owners might find a salvage engine from a car that was totaled in an accident but there aren't 10,000 of those either. And last, if the numbers were that high then the aftermarket/eBay would also be flooded with failed engine Boxsters and we just don't see any of this happening.

The only conclusion is that the engine failure rate is much less then 5% (or failed Boxsters are with all of the socks that disappear from the dryer).

If I recall, LN estimated 20%+ failure rate. You aren't accounting for cars that got new engines through Porsche, rebuilt with the stock IMS (which was the only option before LN, and the cars that were just junked or parted out). At this point, many Boxsters aren't worth fixing if the engine fails. Sad, but true.

[fivepointnine]

Originally Posted by silver arrow

If I recall, LN estimated 20%+ failure rate. You aren't accounting for cars that got new engines through Porsche, rebuilt with the stock IMS (which was the only option before LN, and the cars that were just junked or parted out). At this point, many Boxsters aren't worth fixing if the engine fails. Sad, but true.

that would mean I would be seeing a Boxster on a tow-truck every day as many as there are around here! And there would not be any 100k+ Boxsters for sale on craigslist either (there are a ton)

I am straight up calling BS on 20%