Another one bites the dust - probable IMS issue

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by mts

I was able to tow the car to a local Porsche tech who was unfortunately able to confirm that my initial diagnosis of an IMS failure was correct. Now I've got to figure out what to do. Initial thoughts are:

1) Let Jake Raby take a look and get his thoughts. Unfortunately he's on almost a 2 month backlog before he can even look at the car. It will be June before I can even tow it down there to get his thoughts. He's indicated even on a failure caught as quickly as mine was, it's probably less than a 50% chance the motor can be saved(debris in the engine everywhere). If it needs to be rebuilt, I would probably go ahead with the 3.2->3.6 upgrade, but if that is decided in June it will be approximately February 2011 before that work can be completed according to Jake. So I would be out out the cost of the rebuild plus being without the car for almost a year.

2) Do a new crate motor from Porsche and replace the bearing with one from LN before sticking it in the car. This is easily the option that gets the car back on the road the quickest and sadly may end up being one of my least expensive alternatives as well.

3) Call RUF in Dallas to see about doing one of their 3.6 conversions. I would insist on the IMS bearing being upgraded to the LN one before installation. This is probably the most expensive route, but gets the car back on the road in a reasonable amount of time. Anyone dealth with them before?

4) Take my chances on a salvage motor. Frankly this isn't too appealing to me. If my pristine 20k motor failed, how much faith would I really ever have in one that I have no history on?

5) Sell the car as a rolling chasis for whatever $$ I can get and get the fark away from Porsche all together. It's a pristine 550 Edition, but even with that I would probably be very luck to get $10k for it.

By far my preference would be to deal with Jake. I've talked to him on the phone a couple times and he really seems like a good guy. However, the timing just stinks there and really is a testament to how many problems these cars have that he's booked so far out.

Decisions, decisions.

There are a ton of positive aspects related to our engine program, but quick turn around simply isn't one of them.. The engines take a ton of time to assemble when one individual does all the work and at the same time we are developing and evaluating components for the engines.

We are also in the midst of moving our machine shop to another (3rd) building on our property so thats creating a tad more wait than normal as well. When we are finished with this move things will be much better with another 3,500 square feet of manufacturing space and that'll free up another building to store customer's Porsches indoors while they await our attention.

We'll be glad to help, we just can't (and won't) rush to make a buck. Recession??? What recession :-)

[mts]

Originally Posted by mts

I was able to tow the car to a local Porsche tech who was unfortunately able to confirm that my initial diagnosis of an IMS failure was correct. Now I've got to figure out what to do. Initial thoughts are:

1) Let Jake Raby take a look and get his thoughts. Unfortunately he's on almost a 2 month backlog before he can even look at the car. It will be June before I can even tow it down there to get his thoughts. He's indicated even on a failure caught as quickly as mine was, it's probably less than a 50% chance the motor can be saved(debris in the engine everywhere). If it needs to be rebuilt, I would probably go ahead with the 3.2->3.6 upgrade, but if that is decided in June it will be approximately February 2011 before that work can be completed according to Jake. So I would be out out the cost of the rebuild plus being without the car for almost a year.

2) Do a new crate motor from Porsche and replace the bearing with one from LN before sticking it in the car. This is easily the option that gets the car back on the road the quickest and sadly may end up being one of my least expensive alternatives as well.

3) Call RUF in Dallas to see about doing one of their 3.6 conversions. I would insist on the IMS bearing being upgraded to the LN one before installation. This is probably the most expensive route, but gets the car back on the road in a reasonable amount of time. Anyone dealth with them before?

By far my preference would be to deal with Jake. I've talked to him on the phone a couple times and he really seems like a good guy. However, the timing just stinks there and really is a testament to how many problems these cars have that he's booked so far out.

Decisions, decisions.

Everyone, just wanted to give a quick update on where things stand. An the various options I considered. I wanted to throw praise in a few directions and a little less flattering info in others.

1) Flat 6 Innovations - They've been great, they've answered my questions and I can always get them on the phone or via email. Jake will even set up a phone discussion appointment with you to help work around his (and your) busy schedule. Really a top notch organization. I've been very impressed. The downside is they are REALLY busy. They were booking almost 2 months out to even look at my car and if it needed a fully rebuild were quoting some pretty lengthy completion times. This was definitely the way I was heading though despite being without the car for quite possibly a lengthy period of time.

2) RUF in Dallas - What a joke. As far as I can tell they do not take phone calls of any type EVER. After leaving multiple messages over a couple week period and a few emails as well (through their website) I got nothing. I posted something on Rennlist that perhaps they had closed their doors and got multiple posts back that they didn't answer their phone and you needed to physically go over there to speak with them. Since I'm about 1,000 miles away that really didn't work for me. I did get a suggestion to post something in a specific forum on Rennlist as they did check there from time to time. I sort of blasted them in that sub-forum and shortly after did get a return phonecall (which I missed of course I have to work too). Anyway I never did get to speak with them, but did correspond with Hans through Rennlist PM's. Basically they don't even do the RUF conversions on Boxsters anymore. I asked why they still listed it on their website to which I got no response. He did indicate he could do an FVD 3.8L conversion for me for $30k, but never responded to my timeframe question or what was involved, nor did he respond to my suggestion for him to give me a time he would be available for a call. No way would I ever consider doing business with these people.

3) Porsche Goodwill - After seeing how long it would be to get in with Flat 6, I decided to take a shot with Porsche goodwill in the meantime. My car is a special edition car with 20k miles, immacuate maintenance records, and has been out from under warranty for a year. Unfortunately my local Porsche dealership closed in January so I was basically dealing with strangers on this deal (not giving me too much hope). I tried 3 dealerships: Bluegrass Porsche in Louisville, Kings North Porsche in Cincinnati, and Porsche of the Village in Cincinnati. Of the 3, only Porsche of the Village in Cincinnati seemed willing to got to bat with me with Porsche so I took the car to them. They've had the car for over a month and I just got word that Porsche goodwill is covering 100% of the cost of a crate motor.

I think I got very lucky on this deal. Obviously my opinion of Porsche of the Village is pretty high right now. I wasn't sure I would have much luck going this direction so I'm quite pleased. I should get the car back next week.

Absent this help I was looking at a very extended period without the car.

[landrovered]

Wow congrats,

You have been hired as goodwill ambassador at large by Porsche North America and they have paid you in advance.

I am pleased to hear that they made this decision when they were not obligated to do so. It says a lot about them.

Yeah for everybody!

[Perfectlap]

Holy Cow. New engine...six years out of warranty. Boy I feel like writing them a letter of endorsement..

[mts]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

Holy Cow. New engine...six years out of warranty. Boy I feel like writing them a letter of endorsement..

Huh? It's only been out from under warranty for a year?

[RandallNeighbour]

So will you now take the car with the new motor in it to Jake for an IMS bearing swap?

[Cloudsurfer]

Originally Posted by RandallNeighbour

So will you now take the car with the new motor in it to Jake for an IMS bearing swap?

His new engine likely has the last revised version of the IMS with the huge single row bearing, which cannot be swapped (short of tearing down the entire engine and sending the actual shaft out to LN) as the OD of the bearing is larger than the size of the hole in the case halves.

On other topics, I'd say our friend got EXTREMELY lucky getting PCNA to eat the cost on this.

[Dragonwind]

Congrats on a great outcome! :dance: My suggestion once the engine is replaced is to DRIVE THE CAR! Poor unloved boxster...

[mts]

Originally Posted by RandallNeighbour

So will you now take the car with the new motor in it to Jake for an IMS bearing swap?

To agree with CLoudsurfer, it can't be done now according to Jake. I feel like I've dodged a bit of a bullet on this one and consider myself very lucky. As a result I'm going to give pretty strong consideration to selling the car in the next year or so.

Even with what I consider to be a great result for me, this experience has been pretty frustrating. Vendors that won't take or return calls, others that are difficult to deal with, others that are a long way from where I am located and the simple fact of staring into the very real possibility of either a $20k repair/upgrade bill and/or being without the car for almost a year have left me a bit shaken. It's one thing to drop $20k into at $50k car, it's quite another to do it into a $20k car.

There are some highly skilled air cooled Porsche shops pretty local to me so that's a real possibility for a replacement. A non M96 newer 911 or Boxster is also a possibility. I may feel differently in a few weeks once I get the car back and get to drive it some, but that is how I am leaning for now.

If I could reverse gears I would have gotten the IMS work done last fall. I could have, but was trying to schedule a 3.2L - 3.6L upgrade with Jake and wanted to "wait" on the IMS to do it with the 3.6L upgrade. Obviously though I wanted to wait on the 3.6 upgrade (which was tentatively planned for this winter), my IMS didn't want to wait that long.

[Johnny Danger]

Originally Posted by mts

Everyone, just wanted to give a quick update on where things stand. An the various options I considered. I wanted to throw praise in a few directions and a little less flattering info in others.

1) Flat 6 Innovations - They've been great, they've answered my questions and I can always get them on the phone or via email. Jake will even set up a phone discussion appointment with you to help work around his (and your) busy schedule. Really a top notch organization. I've been very impressed. The downside is they are REALLY busy. They were booking almost 2 months out to even look at my car and if it needed a fully rebuild were quoting some pretty lengthy completion times. This was definitely the way I was heading though despite being without the car for quite possibly a lengthy period of time.

2) RUF in Dallas - What a joke. As far as I can tell they do not take phone calls of any type EVER. After leaving multiple messages over a couple week period and a few emails as well (through their website) I got nothing. I posted something on Rennlist that perhaps they had closed their doors and got multiple posts back that they didn't answer their phone and you needed to physically go over there to speak with them. Since I'm about 1,000 miles away that really didn't work for me. I did get a suggestion to post something in a specific forum on Rennlist as they did check there from time to time. I sort of blasted them in that sub-forum and shortly after did get a return phonecall (which I missed of course I have to work too). Anyway I never did get to speak with them, but did correspond with Hans through Rennlist PM's. Basically they don't even do the RUF conversions on Boxsters anymore. I asked why they still listed it on their website to which I got no response. He did indicate he could do an FVD 3.8L conversion for me for $30k, but never responded to my timeframe question or what was involved, nor did he respond to my suggestion for him to give me a time he would be available for a call. No way would I ever consider doing business with these people.

3) Porsche Goodwill - After seeing how long it would be to get in with Flat 6, I decided to take a shot with Porsche goodwill in the meantime. My car is a special edition car with 20k miles, immacuate maintenance records, and has been out from under warranty for a year. Unfortunately my local Porsche dealership closed in January so I was basically dealing with strangers on this deal (not giving me too much hope). I tried 3 dealerships: Bluegrass Porsche in Louisville, Kings North Porsche in Cincinnati, and Porsche of the Village in Cincinnati. Of the 3, only Porsche of the Village in Cincinnati seemed willing to got to bat with me with Porsche so I took the car to them. They've had the car for over a month and I just got word that Porsche goodwill is covering 100% of the cost of a crate motor.

I think I got very lucky on this deal. Obviously my opinion of Porsche of the Village is pretty high right now. I wasn't sure I would have much luck going this direction so I'm quite pleased. I should get the car back next week.

Absent this help I was looking at a very extended period without the car.

MTS,

What you are experiencing with RUF in Dallas is nothing new. I had the same communication problems with them 2 years ago when I was looking into purchasing their 986 body kit. In fact, I was so annoyed by them, that I contacted RUF in Germany and expressed my frustration. Surprisingly, RUF was very attentive to my concerns and subsequently had their affiliate in Dallas contact me directly. Upon speaking with them, I could detect that someone had gotten a "slapping" from Germany regarding their poor customer service. In any case, judging by your recent experience with RUF in Dallas, it suggests to me that they are still a bunch of disorganized jackasses. Which is a shame, since RUF offers some really nice products. For what its worth, I would recommend that you send RUF in Germany an email and let them know about your bad experience.

[Jake Raby]

Obviously though I wanted to wait on the 3.6 upgrade (which was tentatively planned for this winter), my IMS didn't want to wait that long.

The readers of this thread need to take this experience that MTS has gone through very seriously. In the past 6-8 months we've had at least two other occasions where those who had inquired about an IMSR procedure experienced a catastrophic engine failure while either making their mind up, or playing devil's advocate.

MTS got very lucky, very, very lucky as most cars that are out of warranty for even a month are out of luck. With the reduction in sales due to the economy dealers are doing less and less to assist people with warranty and out of warranty claims, trying to squeeze every dollar that they can into the bank account.

Generally we don't see these sorts of issues, people schedule their procedure, drive and enjoy the car while on the wait list and then they ship the vehicle this way, we do our work and its a done deal.. The IMS failure doesn't have to ask permission to occur and it generally doesn't care what your plans are, or whats convenient for you. When the time comes things go down hill very, very fast.

The new replacement engine cannot have the IMS retrofitted. This is because all replacement engines since 2006 have used the same IMS bearing as the M97 engines, which is larger than the access port in the crankcase, therefore it can't be removed. This means that any replacement engine since 2006 is forever equipped with its factory installed IMS bearing.

I am almost finished with building #3 here on our property, its been a 5 month venture to purchase this building and totally remodel it to serve as an added area for our work to be carried out. Our primary goal after we accomplish this is to decrease wait times as much as possible while avoiding "rush work" which breeds mistakes and issues. None of us here have tasks that are dictated by a clock. Procedures take as long as they take and thats been the recipe to mechanical success and development with these engines thus far.

That said, I have an opening in my schedule that was left by MTS the week of June 2nd, when we had scheduled to perform his procedure. If anyone is looking to have the procedure done and would like to take the opportunity to have it done sooner than our current August scheduling, email my assistant, Dean at info@flat6innovations.com
Most of our retrofit clients ship their cars from far away, so this is short notice to have a car shipped, but if we could fill this void in our schedule it would be a very good thing. If you are close to Atlanta, this might be an opportunity to take advantage of.

MTS, let us know how the new engine performs. I wouldn't sell the car- just drive and enjoy it.

[Perfectlap]

That's a shame your inclined to sell it. But its a great time to buy a second hand Pcar, maybe the best ever. Not sure I would swap for an air-cooled Porsche. That's not exactly going the lower maintenance route. I myself am leaning towards waiting for 09 or newer 997 (I only buy used, low miles) but selling the Boxster is out of the question. It has its flawes like most any Porsche but it does what it was designed to do very well. I'm not sure I can think of too many cars whose creator was so worried that it would be so good (or should I say too good) that it went through the trouble of putting in a smaller engine. That might be a first.

As to people waiting to put in the newer IMS, I think it's really a bad idea to wait for the clutch to wear out. So you pass up the last couple of years of clutch use.
Better to forgoe $400 of value (assuming you get 6 years out of a clutch at $1200) and avoid the expense of a new engine. Even if you do swap the clutch prematurely you still have a new clutch to put down the power and you have reduced your vulnerability dramatically. Not to mention a big worry is off your back. This is an easy repair for any Porsche specialist. One guy did it in his garage without a lift, without special tools and without any experience taking out a trans. Wish I was that handy, would have saved me $2K.

[coreseller]

First off....Congrats MTS, I'm very happy for you on the outcome. It's also reassuring to know Porsche of the Village is a standup outfit, especially since they are close by for me. Lastly, I did the IMS Retrofit in my garage without a lift and had no prior experience working on Porsches. It really was not THAT big of a deal, it just required a little research, $150 or so in hardware (jack stands, trans adapter for jack, sockets), Bentley manual and patience. I probably had ten man hours into the job and could likely shave 2 or 3 off of that if I had to do it again.

http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?/topic/32315-ims-rms-tranny-r-r-tips/

[Johnny Danger]

Originally Posted by coreseller

First off....Congrats MTS, I'm very happy for you on the outcome. It's also reassuring to know Porsche of the Village is a standup outfit, especially since they are close by for me. Lastly, I did the IMS Retrofit in my garage without a lift and had no prior experience working on Porsches. It really was not THAT big of a deal, it just required a little research, $150 or so in hardware (jack stands, trans adapter for jack, sockets), Bentley manual and patience. I probably had ten man hours into the job and could likely shave 2 or 3 off of that if I had to do it again.

http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?/topic/32315-ims-rms-tranny-r-r-tips/

I'm impressed. Thats a real "Macgyver" technique if ever I've heard of one.

[ElementAI]

Originally Posted by coreseller

First off....Congrats MTS, I'm very happy for you on the outcome. It's also reassuring to know Porsche of the Village is a standup outfit, especially since they are close by for me. Lastly, I did the IMS Retrofit in my garage without a lift and had no prior experience working on Porsches. It really was not THAT big of a deal, it just required a little research, $150 or so in hardware (jack stands, trans adapter for jack, sockets), Bentley manual and patience. I probably had ten man hours into the job and could likely shave 2 or 3 off of that if I had to do it again.

http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?/topic/32315-ims-rms-tranny-r-r-tips/

You could do the retrofits on the side and make some nice $$ and help out some Forum members too? Idea...

[coreseller]

Originally Posted by ElementAI

You could do the retrofits on the side and make some nice $$ and help out some Forum members too? Idea...

Naa....I'm getting ready to take on another project with my oldest son to teach him the value of wrenching and work, I'm lucky to have two sons who are also gearheads. Frankly, if my transmission would not have needed a rebuild I would of sent it down to Jake for the work, his prices are fair for what is involved. That transmission issue just complicated the process so I did it myself. In all honesty....if anyone wants to hollar my way regarding taking on the IMS project go ahead, I'd be happy to let them know what helped me out.

[Johnny Danger]

With all of this health care reform going on, we should establish a Porsche HMO to deal specifically with IMS. We can also write Barack and tell him that there are some forum members who work for AIG, and maybe we can get some stimulus money.