Any Porsche exec's listening?

[Paul]

IMO any two seat sports car is a toy.

So how much should a factory provided motor cost in a $50,000 car? I wonder how much a factory supplied motor costs for a Corvette which has a much less sophisticated motor? Remember Porsche ships them with most of the accessories but GM sends a long block that doesn't have the fuel injection, water pump, manifolds, etc.

No Porsche motor has been bullet proof. Cars are an expense, not an investment.

[blinkwatt]

If you guys want to do something about this talk to 996 owners. It seems like the early 3.2L & 3.4L from the 996 all have the same exact design flaws;i.m.s. failures and cracked heads,both resulting in totaled engines. I'd recommend getting receipts and diagnosis from shops together,copy them, mail them all to one party,have them present it to Porsche and I'm sure it will get much more then 'no response' from Porsche.

When I was searching for a 986 S one my main factors was that the mileage couldn't be too low...I was afraid it blowing an engine. Now that I look back on that it's kinda sad(on Porsche's part).

[Brucelee]

Originally Posted by Paul

IMO any two seat sports car is a toy.

So how much should a factory provided motor cost in a $50,000 car? I wonder how much a factory supplied motor costs for a Corvette which has a much less sophisticated motor? Remember Porsche ships them with most of the accessories but GM sends a long block that doesn't have the fuel injection, water pump, manifolds, etc.

No Porsche motor has been bullet proof. Cars are an expense, not an investment.

3-5K new for a chevy v8. Less for a rebuiltversion.

[Paul]

OK, now lets add (someone can confirm this list that's actually has received a new motor).

Intake manifold
Exhaust manifold
Fuel injection system
MAF
Sending units
Spark plugs, coils, and wires
water pump
front pulley
engine wiring harness
power steering pump
belt idlers, tensioner
shipping from Germany
2 year warranty
Devaluation of the dollar against the Euro
Oil Pan
Motor mounts?
alternator

[Paul]

How about $14000 for the Chevy? This one has more parts than the crate motors I've seen and it's for a $72,000 Z06.

CHEVY

[pbanders]

Originally Posted by Paul

How about $14000 for the Chevy? This one has more parts than the crate motors I've seen and it's for a $72,000 Z06.

CHEVY

The days of an "unsophisticated" Corvette motor are long gone. Still a lot cheaper in the HP/$ index than Porsche's offerings.

[Paul]

Does the Corvette have (I don't know the answers):

4 cams?

4 valves per cylinder?

Variable valve timing?

Pushrod valve activation?

[pbanders]

Originally Posted by Paul

Does the Corvette have (I don't know the answers):

4 cams?

4 valves per cylinder?

Variable valve timing?

Pushrod valve activation?

Nope on the 4 cams, 4 valves, and VVT, and of course, it has pushrods. That doesn't mean it isn't sophisticated, and it doesn't seem to need that stuff to make plenty of HP while delivering comparatively good fuel economy (17/24 mpg). The basic specifications are the same as Le Mans winning C5-R engine. 7.0L, 505 HP, 470 lb-ft torque. Aluminium block and heads, and you don't hear Corvette owners worrying about hitting the 7000 rpm redline with this motor. Titanium connecting rods and intake valves, sodium-filled exhaust valves, 11.0:1 compression. Dry sump lubrication.

That's a lot of engine for $14K. Considering that Porsches with comparable performance have engine replacement costs probably in excess of $30K, owners should expect at least similar performance, efficiency, and reliability than a Z06, and reasonably, should expect a lot more.

[Brucelee]

This is an interesting diversion. I can go down to Kragen and buy a rebuilt chevy v8 for under 2 grand.

Having said that, why is this relevant? If Porsche has a design flaw that runs over 11 years (IMS and RMS), don;t you think it is reasonable that they FIX THE D*** thing?

I love the Boxster but don't think we need to apologize for the arrogance or ignorance of the company.

[Topless]

There are some very bright engineers in Stuttgart. They could fix this if they wanted to.

[Brucelee]

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[Paul]

My point is that like Porsche, GM charges big bucks for a factory crate motor.

[Brucelee]

Originally Posted by Paul

My point is that like Porsche, GM charges big bucks for a factory crate motor.

Apparently not. See above.

Also, there are TONS of remanufactureres out there supplying chevy v8s for very little money.

Not so with the Boxster.

[Paul]

One of the reasons we bought a Porsche was the fact that it's made in small numbers so it's rare in most parts of the US to see one like yours very often.

I suppose sooner or later like most other Porsche models, someone will produce a kit that will allow us to install one of the millions of really "impressive" and cheap Chevy V6s.

In regards to your pricing above, that is not for a Corvette motor but rather for a 4 door Chevy costing $20,000.

So if a $20,000 car's motor costs $5,000, then a $60,000 car's motor should cost $15,000???

[Brucelee]

Originally Posted by Paul

One of the reasons we bought a Porsche was the fact that it's made in small numbers so it's rare in most parts of the US to see one like yours very often.

I suppose sooner or later like most other Porsche models, someone will produce a kit that will allow us to install one of the millions of really "impressive" and cheap Chevy V6s.

In regards to your pricing above, that is not for a Corvette motor but rather for a 4 door Chevy costing $20,000.

So if a $20,000 car's motor costs $5,000, then a $60,000 car's motor should cost $15,000???

Actually Paul, the LS1 is a Corvette motor. It was introduced in the C5 in 1997 and has an alloy block and heads. It makes 345 BHP and 375 lbs of torque.

Nothing wrong with this motor, which weighs about what a Box motor weighs, and makes just a bit more HP for A LOT less money.

The point of all this is, if Porsche is going to make such a brittle motor, the least they could do is produce a cheaper replacement.

BTW-In the early 90s, I bought a Corvette C4 with a bad motor for $5K. My mechanic sourced a create motor from GM with 375 HP new, with warranty.

Cost to me. $5500 completely installed.

My brother still has the car, which runs like the day we put the motor in it, some 15 yrs. later.

[Brucelee]

Your first, in-depth look at what will power Corvettes into the next century.

by Hib Halverson
Electronic Version, copyright 1996, 1997 by Shark Communications

Adapted from material published on the Vettenet and ZR1 net mail lists in August 1996 and from a printed version in the August, 1996 issue of Corvette Fever magazine


Before the 1997 Corvette was even in dealers, it had been reported for a year or more that the all-new platform, known to insiders as "C5," would be the first General Motors Corporation product to use a new family of medium-displacement V8 engines. Though the car did not debut on the show circuit until January 6, 1997 and in dealers on March 6. 1997, way back on June 11, 1996 in Los Angeles, GM confirmed the engine rumor with a preliminary to the C5 launch: a press show spotlighting its engine.

My first reaction back then was that what’s known as "RPO LS1, 5.7L SFI V8," is an outstanding design, engineering and manufacturing exercise destined to be yet another landmark in the history of America’s Sports Car. My second reaction? A snicker at the show biz that clouded the engine’s debut.

It is not unusual to introduce a new Corvette engine before its car. In 1988, media got a comprehensive technical seminar on the LT5 nine months before it was shown the ZR1. Of course, this is now; and that was then.

A major deficiency of this June 11 show and Chevrolet’s other LS1 publicity efforts around the country in the summer of 1996 was that 1) they failed to adequately address the most striking feature of LS1: its pushrod valve gear and 2) they came wrapped in a spoof of medical TV shows. The Corvette community contains many potential C5 customers who were not served well by this program because its information value was degraded by its need to entertain.

The quality and timeliness of the in-depth, LS1, technical information reaching the Chevrolet enthusiast was further blunted by only average coverage to date from Corvette media and Chevrolet’s decision to let Hot Rod magazine break the LS1 story ahead of all other publications. The stories that finally made it into print in the Corvette media were either too brief, poorly researched or lacked depth because their editors felt preempted by Chevrolet’s leaking the story.

These shortcomings of these processes are why you have The Idaho Unofficial Corvette and Corvette Surfing WWW sites. Like a beacon of reality, we’re going to cut through the smoke to the hard-core, gearhead story behind this stunning, new engine.

The LS1 press kit said, "Based on a timeless design by former Chevrolet Chief Engineer Ed Cole, the ‘Gen III’ 5.7-liter V8 marks a bright new chapter in the highly respected lineage that GM small blocks have established in more than 40 years."

I think Chevrolet understated its case.

LS1 is brilliant.

Rather than just a chapter in engine history; it’s more like a whole new book!

What it is not is: "based on" Ed Cole’s legendary Small-Block. LS1’s greatness comes from being a clean-sheet-of-paper design. The only major feature it has in common with the Small-Block is a bore center-to-center measurement of 4.40 inches and we believe that exists for marketing reasons rather than an engineering case.

For the rest of the write up


http://www.idavette.net/hib/ls1c.html

[Brucelee]

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[Paul]

They were one of the companies that I was referring to, but to my knowledge no one has offered such a kit for 996s and 986s.

I guess I'm willing to pay more for a new Porsche motor than for a new Chevy motor.

All kidding aside, IMO replacement motors should have a 5 year and 100,000 mile warranty and it should be transferable to subsequent owners.

[Quickurt]

With the VVT in the box (mine's an 06 3.2 S) the max torque remains from 4600 to 6000 RPM. I haven't checked first to second, but no gears above that drop to under 4600 if you shift at just above 6000...........
Being an old road racer in formula cars, and having my engine builder as a best friend, I know the magic numbers are average torque over what RPM range, then gearing and shifting the car accordingly. We worked many hours and wore out a couple of rebuilds building headers and intake boxes to maximize this on a formula ford. All the cars weighed 1100 lb., with the driver, and the difference from an average to a great motor was around 5 HP.
Just to prove this out, a few weeks ago I went through the BrumosU event with Hurley Haywood instructing. The last thing we did for the day was a few runs on the infamous Gainesville Raceway drag strip. Beside getting the dead drop off the lights against a 3.6 C2 and a 07 Turbo, just to have them pass me both times before I got third gear....... my best of three runs was the first, shifting at 6200 RPM. 6500 was slower and 7,000 was the slowest run. (best run - 14.032 @ 99.98 MPH.)
Therefore, my box should never see 7000 RPM again.
As far as motors popping, it's a disaster if it happens and an aside to a GREAT car if it doesn't, but there are far bigger problems on far more expensive cars.

I have an attitude that may sound harsh, but I learned it at the race track. If you can't afford to do this, don't complain when the bills come due.
I absolutely loved formula atlantic and going back to formula ford was one of the most difficult things I did. One good lesson made it clear. I had a fairly minor crash in an atlantic car and it cost more than buying an entire formula ford just to buy the repair parts.......

The best advice I read through this thread was to have a fund for your possible repairs. The most honest advice I read was if you can't afford to repair your car, you need to own one you can afford to repair.
Buying new cars to keep up warrantees is more expensive than establishing that repair fund and is really just an excuse to keep buying new cars! I know, I've used it often!!

[Brucelee]

If Boxster motors were 4-5K, this would be more of a non-issue. Also, they are not the easiest motors to swap out.