986S vs 987S steering feel

[Quickurt]

Great point Hops. My 987S is just frigging unbelievable on rough roads. Every other sportscar I've had would make you suck up about half your seat bottom if you hit some rough spots in a turn. The 987 dips and climbs and rocks and rolls, but it continues to track on the perfect line you set it on. Miraculous.
By the way, I looked hard at NSXs and what I could buy for the price of my 06 S........? A 95? No warranty, an extreme shortage of mechanics who know the car and how long a wait for your local dealer to figure out a problem, get parts and fix it? Let alone those years still eat front tires.
No thanks. Neat car, but no thanks.
I paid 44k for my 06 S with 11K miles, Certified with 100K warranty out to 5/2012, including the BrumosU school with Hurley Haywood instructing. What's it worth to have the winningest ever Porsche racer drive you through the courses in your Boxster S? How nerve-racking is it to then have to DRIVE HIM through the next run?????
The 20k service was done as part of the cert. process, so I don't even have a maintenance until 30k miles. No NSX deal could touch that, and I've since played with a couple in that price range and they won't touch my Box.
The Lotus is really neat, just don't get hit by that SUV that couldn't see you down there in go-kart land. If all you're going to do is track it, well then there are even better cars yet. Buy a formula car or sports racer.

[Quickurt]

I have to disagree slightly Perfect Lap.
I drove a ton of 2000 to 2004 986s, almost all S's. Then I drove the 2006 987S and I have to say in any single category there was not a breathtaking difference. Thing is it was superior in every category I can think of and when you add them all together, there is quite an over-all difference in the cars. Enough difference that I had decided I would rather have an 05 or newer standard Boxster over a pre-05 S.
Luckily I found my 06 S at the right time and place to get a very good deal from Brumos, who seldom understands the term good deal.

[eslai]

I test drove a 2004 986S before I bought my 2005 987S. One of the reasons I didn't buy a 986 was because the steering feel was so slow and numb. The 987 felt "right", which was factored into my decision.

[musicboy]

Tire size and type also make a huge difference. When I bought my 02 it had 18" with well worn Pirellis and I thought it felt like a truck (a very pretty truck). I switched to 16" with Michelins and it was MUCH better, but I was getting some tire squeal and slip in low speed cornering. Finally went to 17" Bridgestones and this, for me, is the best compromise. Feeling is not quite as enjoyable as with the 16", but tons and tons of grip in corners.

[Perfectlap]

^ yeah I've had the same experience in every car whose wheels I upgraded to bigger. The one swap that wasn't as diluted was going to larger but lighter wheels. I think its got more to do with the weight than the wheel size. Tire weight is even more of an impact. I had R-comp Toyo RA-1s and my 20 pound wheels felt like 28 pound OEMs. But man are those some durable puppies for a barely legal tire and they work in the rain.

[Jacques79]

Originally Posted by eslai

I test drove a 2004 986S before I bought my 2005 987S. One of the reasons I didn't buy a 986 was because the steering feel was so slow and numb. The 987 felt "right", which was factored into my decision.

That's funny because I test drove a Lotus Elise today and I didn't think it had that much better steering feel than my stock 2000 Boxster S.

And the Lotus Elise is considered THE best car in the world in terms of steering feel.

Aside from a Lotus Elise I haven't driven a current production car that have better steering feedback.

So you're saying the 987S communicates more road surface changes through vibrations in the steering wheel than the 986S?

I'm veryyyy curious to test drive one tomorrow if that's the case.

[eslai]

Originally Posted by Jacques79

So you're saying the 987S communicates more road surface changes through vibrations in the steering wheel than the 986S?

Well, really what I cared most about was the responsiveness of the rack. Sure, they're all fairly dead these days as far as road feel goes--but you get enough feel either way.

The 987 felt more "telegraphic" if you know what I mean. It felt toed-out, almost. The 986 felt like it took many more degrees of input before the car woke up.

Hope that's descriptive enough.

[Hops]

Originally Posted by Jacques79

So you're saying the 987S communicates more road surface changes through vibrations in the steering wheel than the 986S?

I don't think that is true. If anything, I think the 987S communicates less to you. But, as I mentioned in my last post, it is as if the 987S suspension takes care of more for you and doesn't bother to tell you about things you don't need to know. It's kind of like an agent acting on your behalf.

However, as the previous posted noted, the 987S is more responsive to driver input. So, the car is telling you less about the little details of the road, but it is very perceptive to the instructions you are telling it.

A car with higher limits and lower feedback ordinarily is a dangerous combination, especially in a mid-engine design, but the 987S gives you clear messages when things are getting close to the edge, and I have found that it isn't too hard to control near the limit. I've only had PSM kick in once, and it was by choice. I intentionally pushed it past the limit on an on-ramp with lots of room for error.

[Jacques79]

Originally Posted by Hops

I don't think that is true. If anything, I think the 987S communicates less to you. But, as I mentioned in my last post, it is as if the 987S suspension takes care of more for you and doesn't bother to tell you about things you don't need to know. It's kind of like an agent acting on your behalf.

However, as the previous posted noted, the 987S is more responsive to driver input. So, the car is telling you less about the little details of the road, but it is very perceptive to the instructions you are telling it.

A car with higher limits and lower feedback ordinarily is a dangerous combination, especially in a mid-engine design, but the 987S gives you clear messages when things are getting close to the edge, and I have found that it isn't too hard to control near the limit. I've only had PSM kick in once, and it was by choice. I intentionally pushed it past the limit on an on-ramp with lots of room for error.

So basically:

986S= Better steering feel, steering wheel follows the road more and doesn't go back to center automatically: more like an E30 M3

987S= Better steering response, quicker turn in, but steering feels more numb and isolated from the road: more like a Honda S2000

[Hops]

I haven't driven the S2000, but from what I've read, the 987S is more similar to the later model S2000, which are less apt to bite the driver for mistakes in weight transfer. The point being that the early S2000 models didn't communicate problems well enough. In comparison the 987S is often held up as a car that is easy to push hard. There is probably some truth to your comparison.

Comparing M3 vs. Boxster is tough because they are very different cars. I guess if you try to isolate steering feel, I agree with your comment. So many other factors make that a tough thing to isolate. To me, M3 is all about the engine, with the suspension and handling intended to manage the power. The Boxster is a car that frankly "overhandles" compared to the power it makes. It could easily stand up to 350-375 HP without getting tough to manage. In general, the mid-engined Boxster seems to have much better balance. Making these general comments just to explain that I do not find the M3 an easy comparison...

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by Quickurt

I have to disagree slightly Perfect Lap.
I drove a ton of 2000 to 2004 986s, almost all S's. Then I drove the 2006 987S and I have to say in any single category there was not a breathtaking difference. Thing is it was superior in every category I can think of and when you add them all together, there is quite an over-all difference in the cars. Enough difference that I had decided I would rather have an 05 or newer standard Boxster over a pre-05 S.
Luckily I found my 06 S at the right time and place to get a very good deal from Brumos, who seldom understands the term good deal.

I guess its a subjective matter because on lap times its very close. It's not like we are talking V6 M3 to V8 M3. The one car I did drive that seemed to be a completely different car was the Cayman S. That was the first test drive after many laps (including autocross) in all the non-GT 996 Carreras, Boxsters (986 & 987) that made me consider dumping my current wheels for something new.
Obviously adding the rigidity of a fixed roof completely changes the ball game.
Short of the fixex roof you need to show me more than 50 HP for the car to change in dramatic way. A big reason I spent no money on power mods, just seat of the pants faster isn't fast enough for me.

p.s.
I was referring to the steering when I said I thought the dif was minimal between 986S and 987S. I find all to be numb in the Porsche context. Take a ride in an old Carrera or 914 and you'll see what I'm talking about. The newer cars get heavier, more insulated/isolated and the big wheels and tires kill the whole old school pure-type experience.