Boxster Killer?

[MLegere]

Guy's and Gal's,

I will be 47 Yr's old this year;and have driven my fare share of sports cars, SUV'S and trucks. When I went looking for a better sports car (last car 04 BMW MCS)
I drove alot of cars Vetts, Mustang's, S2000, a very nice but some what older NSX; I think you get my my meaning. If bang for the buck is what your about all of the above cars have it. Drive a Porsche at 100 MPH aswell as the other car's and you well soon come to understand that the Boxster just felt so much more at home then any other car I have driven. In the used car market the Boxster is IMOH the best value for the money.

All the other cars I have driven over the Yr's have never come close to the kinda of feedback it translates back to the driver. Live long and prosper!!!!!

Mike

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by No_Name

Yes, mid-engine. I knew someone would bite. I'll give you a chance to redeem youself if you can explain why that is.

wait a minute the S2000 is a MR now? I guess allot of front engine cars will have to be re-examined to see if the engine is actually behind the the shock mounts!

The S2000 was on my short list until I watched top gear's ratings of the best sports cars in the world. Tiff Needell in that Silver Boxster sold me on mid engine.

[No_Name]

Originally Posted by Lux

[b][i]

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I live on S2Ki. I know what’s said there about the Boxster. What made you think I ordered a MY05 BS for 6/05 delivery? Believe me, they sing to your praises. And yes, BS is better than S2000. I don’t believe I even hinted otherwise in all my posts.

Whoa! It was someone else that claimed S2000 outnumbered Boxster at SCCA 10:1. I said the ratio here is less than that here in both auto-x and track events. Then I corrected someone else who suggested the ratio is skewed due to there are “millions” of Honda, when in fact there are less S2000’s than Boxster’s on the road. Then I said I’ll leave it up to him to figure out why that is.

You believe the rumors running on that board? There probably won’t be a 2nd gen. S2000. Even if there was, no one would know about it b/c Honda keep info tightly sealed. I’ll bet you dinner though that there will an MY06, and then I’ll bet you dinner again there will be an MY07 S2000.

I don’t understand why you think your statement about the NSX would hurt me though, as I am not particular to any one brand. I just buy the best car I can afford.

And FYI the plan for S2000 was 5,000 units/year for US. It ballooned to what it is due to stronger demand than expected. Shortage in the first year drove its price up to 10k over MSRP in some areas such as Socal and Seattle/Redmond areas. I can’t say Honda is disappointed with its success.

“The only real midengined configuration that matters is when the engine is behind the driver.” See, this is exactly the kind of statements that makes me go, “hmmm…”

See, if more S2000's were sold, there would be guys like the one ealier that says something to the effect of, "I'd rather have a more limited production car," as if it would be somehow better. They don't sell 20k units/yr and here comes you saying Honda is somehow incompetent for not selling more. Can't win.

[kajita]

does that mean my old 350z was mid engine??? clearly with engine past the front struts with 51/49 ratio?
come on now No Name, give me a break....
whats the big deal, front engines arent that bad.... just accept it, s2k is a great car. its just not a boxster, no matter what it can do.

[No_Name]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

wait a minute the S2000 is a MR now? I guess allot of front engine cars will have to be re-examined to see if the engine is actually behind the the shock mounts!

The S2000 was on my short list until I watched top gear's ratings of the best sports cars in the world. Tiff Needell in that Silver Boxster sold me on mid engine.

Go head, see how many you can find. If you can find 3 or more in the last 20 years, that would be a hell of an achievement. I can't think of any except maybe the early Nissan/Datsun Z models.

You made your purchase decision based on a car video review?!

Nonetheless, mid-engine is indeed :thumbup:

[No_Name]

Originally Posted by kajita

does that mean my old 350z was mid engine??? clearly with engine past the front struts with 51/49 ratio?
come on now No Name, give me a break....
whats the big deal, front engines arent that bad.... just accept it, s2k is a great car. its just not a boxster, no matter what it can do.

You read my mind about the Z. (read my post above) Though I don't think the 300ZX was. The ealier 280Z are more probable, and you remember the rave reviews it had. RX-7 (and 8?) might be another - it's handling is world class in its own right.

I wasn't defensive about it. I stated the S2000 has a mid-engine layout as a fact that it is. Then someone wanted to "call me out."

[No_Name]

OK. So I am a newbie to rear-mid-engine car. Educate me if you will. What makes RMR decisively superior to FMR in handling regardless of everything else such as weight? It has less drive train loss, this I understand and appreciate. Please refrain from “only real midengined configuration that matters is when the engine is behind the driver” type of general statement, b/c frankly it is not convincing. I understand "geek talk" better than I can understand hyperbole.

Thanks!

[Lux]

No_name,

Are you on crack? The S2K has better balance than the Boxster? The Boxster has a 44/56 ratio. How exactly is the S2K better balanced? Maybe while it's sitting still but that's about it. Please explain...and I'd love to hear this.

In the meantime, let's go thru some physics and let's have you refute these claims I'm making:

1. Boxster has a lower polar moment of inertia due to the motor's c/g being closer to the driver. Lower moi makes the car pivot easier (e.g. slalom). All this relative to the S2K. True or false. Explain.

2. Boxster's 44/56 ratio is superior to S2K.
2a. During acceleration, the weight is transferred more on the rear wheels.
2b. During braking, the heavier rear allows the rear brakes to be more efficient.
True or false. Explain.

So you think my comments make you go hmmm? I think you better check yourself.

BTW, short of working for Honda, what makes you so sure that there will be '06 and '07 model S2K's? As far as I'm concerned, your "rumor" of there being cars is just as valid as other rumors of the S2K going into extinction.

PS:
My comment of "the only midengine that matters has to be behind the driver" is "not convincing" to you? Just because you refuse to be educated. You come in here spouting off about how great the S2K is and now about how it's better balanced. If you wanted to learn, you should have just asked why m/r is better than f/r.

Meanwhile, you haven't provided any facts to back up your claim. Feel free to go into "geek talk" as you put it. I'm a mechanical engineer. Bring it.

Again, refute my points. Otherwise, cut the ****************.


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[No_Name]

Great points. Certainly lot more productive than hyperbole made earlier. I'd be sure to find time to resond tonight. Thanks

[No_Name]

OK. I see my posts are being butchered and put in to wrong context. If I may, I like to recap what I’ve posted in cliff notes. You can go back to verify if you like.

QporscheQ: “…Honda and Nissan sales will be in the millions. So does it really surprise you that there is a 10:1 S2K to Boxster ratio at SCCA? Your Boxster has a lot more Porsche overhead money in it then some guy's Honda or Nissan… One of the things that I really like about my Boxster is that in terms of the automotive world there really aren’t all that many of them (or us owners). I don’t want a car that everybody else has..."

What he said there is just wrong, so I made the below response: “Wait a minute. There are between 8 - 9,000 S2K's for US in each production year. Boxster, began production in '97, outnumbers the S2K on the road. If it is exclusivity that you seek, you bought the wrong car. Despite that, the number of S2K's in my local auto-x and SCDA track events far outnumbers the 911's and Boxsters combine, though not quite as drastic as the 10:1 ratio aforementioned for the SCCA. I'll leave it to you to figure out why that is.

I also said this: “As for overhead, S2K is the only other RWD car in the company and it shares zero parts w/ its siblings. Everything from its x-bone frame to its mid-engine layout to its interior is designed from scratch... with great success. They were also built - hand-assemble, I might add - in a Japanese plant dedicated to only the S2K and NSX. So they are not exactly saving much money from labor or shipping either.” This was in light of (overhead) cost, not proclaiming S2K’s mid-engine layout is equal to better than Boxster’s.


Lexuspilot: “When someone asks what kind of car I drive, I say "Porsche"....that's it.
Who wants to say "Honda, but it's a S2000, know what that is? It doesn't share components with other hondas, and it outnumbers the other cars at my SCCA"

My response: “That's OK b/c not everyone needs to be a "brand-whore." You see, some people enjoy a car for what it truly is, not how it reflects upon them. Those are the people that I'd like be associated with and be friends with. Sadly, your notion typifies many sports car owners nowadays.” I didn’t “get all high and mighty calling people brand whores.” It was a direct response to Lexuspilot alone, to say that not everyone cares about brand name as much as he does.


Lux: “And seeing more S2K's at the autocross? BFD. Maybe more Boxster owners prefer the track to driving around in parking lots. Here's the bottom line...the S2K is being discontinued even with a modest price of $30K.

I promptly clarified “SCDA events are road course track events. They run on NHIS, LimeRock, and Watkins Glen.” I still see more S2K’s there than 911 and Boxsters combine. Then you started the “discontinued” talk, based on rumors, to suggest that S2K “don’t sell well.” I said, “There probably won’t be a 2nd gen. S2000. Even if there was, no one would know about it b/c Honda keep info tightly sealed. I’ll bet you dinner though that there will an MY06, and then I’ll bet you dinner again there will be an MY07 S2000.”


Lux: “BTW, short of working for Honda, what makes you so sure that there will be '06 and '07 model S2K's? As far as I'm concerned, your "rumor" of there being cars is just as valid as other rumors of the S2K going into extinction.”

My response: Even most people who work for Honda are kept in the dark about future model plans. My assumption is based on this: Honda just moved MY05 S2000’s production to a different plant to make room for the new RL. From a financial standpoint, I don’t see them move a production infrastructure hundreds of miles just to extend its life for one more year, esp. one that builds less 15,000 units world-wide. I am still willing to bet dinner on it.


Lux: “Porsche is a boutique car maker. They deal with low volumes by having higher prices. An S2K that only sells in the 20K volume range at $30K is a failure for a manufacturer like Honda.”

False presumption, to which I replied, “the plan for S2000 was 5,000 units/year for US. It ballooned to what it is (8-9k/yr) due to stronger demand than expected. I can’t say Honda is disappointed with its success.” You can look that up.

All through out, I was correcting misconceptions about the S2K. I did not say one thing to discredit the Boxster itself. But I get the impression that everyone thinks I am bashing it. I have no incentive to do so, as I have only 2 more months in the S2000 before it will be retired in favor of the 987 BS.


Lux, I appreciate you found the time to list the advantages of rear-mid-engine car. I do owe you a constructive response for further discussion in return. Let me gather my research and respond to you tomorrow night as time has run out on me this evening.

[Lux]

No_name,

I like how you recapped everything and ignored the main issue here. Classic troll moves. You're bashing owners and Boxsters on a Boxster enthusiast site as per your quotes below (if I may do a little recapping myself):

1. That's OK b/c not everyone needs to be a "brand-whore." <--- That's insulting a member.

2. I can tell you one thing though: all S2K drivers can drive a stick; no bimbo-blonde, trophy-wife, blvd-cruisers there. <--- Again, how is this not bashing Boxsters and owners? Ever think there might be some tiptronic owners on this site?

I don't know why you're even buying a Boxster with all of your comments...unless you're just trolling. You should just go find that '06 S2K and save yourself from being the only Porsche at the track.


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[Brucelee]

It is probably time to call a time out on this issue of the S2000 vs the Boxster.

Certainly both are fine cars. Since this is a Porsche Boxster forum, we tend to view that car is certain favorable terms.

No one can win the argument as to which is the "better" car since that is by definition, a subjective assessement.

Buy what you like, drive what you like.

"Do not take a dump on your neighbors front yard!"

[No_Name]

Originally Posted by Lux

No_name,

I like how you recapped everything and ignored the main issue here. Classic troll moves. You're bashing owners and Boxsters on a Boxster enthusiast site as per your quotes below (if I may do a little recapping myself):

1. That's OK b/c not everyone needs to be a "brand-whore." <--- That's insulting a member.

2. I can tell you one thing though: all S2K drivers can drive a stick; no bimbo-blonde, trophy-wife, blvd-cruisers there. <--- Again, how is this not bashing Boxsters and owners? Ever think there might be some tiptronic owners on this site?

I don't know why you're even buying a Boxster with all of your comments...unless you're just trolling. You should just go find that '06 S2K and save yourself from being the only Porsche at the track.


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Nope, I bashed (if you want to call it that) the poster, owner or not, that made this statement: “When someone asks what kind of car I drive, I say "Porsche"....that's it.
Who wants to say "Honda, but it's a S2000, know what that is? It doesn't share components with other hondas, and it outnumbers the other cars at my SCCA"

Not once did I bash the Boxster.

[BuffaloBoxster]

In defense of the S2000, you do find a lot of brand snobbery amongst Porsche people (not thinking of anyone in particular just thinking out loud). An S2000 is a faster car at the track than a base Boxster. It does have a very loyal following among the go fast for less cash bunch.

I'll tell you this much, if I had decided to only shop new cars I would be driving an S2000 right now.

[lexuspilot]

Wow..I am a brand whore. Was I brand whore when I was driving my Focus a month ago?
I'd drive/buy a 350z, s2000, STI, or M3. I just didn't. Dude, I drove a focus and loved it. I was on Focaljet.com just like this site.

People judge so fast.

All I said, is I never have to qualify my Porsche purchase. Not that I would care what someone thought of my S2000 if I drove one.

And my screen name has nothing to do with car ownership.

[Adam]

I say to each his own. There are some people that are less concerned with brand appeal than others and want the most bang for the buck. Everyone knows that a person who buys an expensive Ferarri or Porsche isn't doing so just soley for the Performance. If that was the case why not just buy a Z06 and save yourself 100k. People who buy big name cars like Ferrari , Porsche, or Astin are trying to project an image. Usually that image is meant to say "hey I'm successful and I have money." Is there anything wrong with paying more for less? Everybody does it. Some people just do it on bigger purchases such as cars. Ever bought that high priced liquor when there is a less expesive brand that tastes just as good?? Just an example.

[kajita]

I agree 99% with Adam, but my wife will probably agree with Adam 200% with all of her Hermes, Gucci, Prada,....

why 99%? I just love them single malt whisky and Johnnie Walker Blue Label, yum yum.

[RandallNeighbour]

Adam, I'm going to have to disagree with you on the "buy a Z06 and save $100k" comment.

The Vette is a great straight line car, but can't keep up in the twisties when compared to a Porsche or a Ferrari. And the Porsche and Ferrari owners know this. Vettes will always be a Cheverolet as well in that the car's interior is sad to say the least. I believe this is also important to Porsche and Ferrari owners... they want their internal view to be a pleasurable experience as well.

I will also have to agree with you at the same time on the same point though... Carrerra Turbo owners as well as Ferrari owners are indeed trying to make a statement by driving what they drive. For some, it's a statement of passion for speed and handling. But for a sizeable percentage it's to give the appearance of superiority or success.

[Adam]

I really don't think you are giving the Z06 enough credit. We are all Porsche owners here but you have to give credit where it's due. The Z06 pulls 1.00g on the skid pad(which is better than any stock boxster) and slaloms just as quick as a boxster S. While it may or may not give superior feedback or steering feel or whatever it certainly can corner with the best of them. Just one look at it's ring times tells the story. Few production cars produce sub 8 min times and it's actually quicker than a 360 Modena at that track which is the measuring stick for many when a cars track/performance abilities are concerned. You are right about the interior....but my arguement comes purely from a performance perspective. Another way to look at it I guess is to ask this qustion. Is a more upscale interior worth the price of a pretty decent house?

[RandallNeighbour]

Adam, maybe you're right. If you have the time to download this 36 mb file, it's fun to watch the Lotus catch up with the Vette on the Nurburgring in the twisties and lose it's gain the second it flattens out...

http://www.iwantaporsche.net/Nurburgring_movies/Lotus_vs_Vette.mpg