Thinking of buying a Boxster ? - MUST READ !

[southernstar]

We are on a site for Porsche Boxsters and unlike you, I actually own a 2000 986 Boxster. Will your car get better lap times? No doubt - although I suspect most of that can be attributed to straight-line speed and the tires. Understand that I too have owned American cars including a 1979 Mustang 5.0 litre; indeed, I started doing Autocross in the late 1970's in a 1973 Capri V6 with an ansa exhaust, koni shocks, bigger sway bars, hard steering rack bushings and what for that time were considered oversize alloy wheels with Michelin XAS tires. Although not an American car per se, it was similar to a Mustang and you could make it go quickly around a corner that was bump free.

I have owned two Datsun Z's: a 1970 240 and a 1974 euro spec 260Z with handling package and 3 piece Enkei rims, etc. I've also owned over the years, in no particular order, two Fiat X/19's (no power, but incredible handling and 'turn-in'.), a Porsche 944, a 1961 Posrche 356B, a Fiat 850 Spider as well as a couple of BMW's including my current winter vehicle, an X-3 with the sport package (wheels, tires, sway bars, springs and steering wheel).

Your experience with the Boxster is akin to my experience with the Mini - it is limited to test-drives: twice in a loaner by the BMW service departments and a few times in the Mini's that are owned by a couple of my friends (who coincidentally, have also driven my boxster and raved about the superiority of the handling). I like to be able to steer with both the steering wheel and throttle - something that can't be done with FWD (except to increase understeer); I will certainly acknowledge, however, that your Mustang will be plenty capable of throttle-induced oversteer. Anyway, since this is a thread on the 986 Forum entitled "Thinking of buying a Boxster?", perhaps you should go over to a Mustang or Mini forum to express your opinions on the vast superiority of those marques. I suspect, however, that very few people who are considering buying a Boxster would consider either as an alternative; conversely, I suspect that few persons considering buying a Mini or Mustang would be looking at Boxsters.

Cheers!

Brad

[DEye]

Hello SoutherStar,

So having that much experience with multiple cars over the years you can certainly appreciate their differences and the *endearing aspects* of each.

I try to stay away from the "Religious Crusades" but it is difficult at times, one cannot but defend the vehicle they own for the reasons they purchased it and the characteristics they have come to enjoy about cars.

- I am done here, I do hope there is a porsche in my future, but I doubt it will be a Boxster. ( my height and roll bar requirements to track the car, IMS althrough fixed in later models )
So I would appreciate my account being deleted in the interest of my no longer annoying anyone here with my non Boxster posts

So long and thanks for all the Fish,
Don

[southernstar]

DEye, you are right that there are endearing qualites to many cars including your new Mustang - which no doubt will be a great deal of fun (and which clearly offers great bang for the buck). However, comparing the Boxster to your Mustang is a bit like comparing apples and oranges, IMO.

Anyway, enjoy your new ride and participation in a site that is dedicated to your car, or at least, cars like yours.

Cheers!

Brad

[DEye]

yes indeed there are many differences between All cars, even the same cars after a couple of years driving - I had the opportunity to drive several MINI's *just like mine* and was quite surprised by how much different the transmission shifted, the ride quality etc...

With no disrespect or trying to be rude, it seems quite obvious that no one here knows anything about the Boss version of the Mustang, ( and why would you unless you were looking for another car ) Just like you can turn the 911 Pendulum of Death into a well balanced car with $$$$ the Ford engineers turned their attention to making a Mustang that can BOTH Turn and go Straight... ( Imagine ) at least that's the premise that convinced me to purchase this car for much more than I had planned to spend on a Boxster...
I will not try to argue the merits of one over the other - because they are two completely different automobiles...
I don't know what would be actually comparable to a Boxster ?
Two seater Mid-Engined Convertible ???
Third gen MR2 ?

[southernstar]

Deye, agreed. When I was shopping for my used 986 Boxster I drove a large number of cars and found that, apart from early 2.5's which were much less torquey and flexible, the greatest difference seemed to be based not on model year, but condition. In some the steering felt more loose, the clutch engagment shuddered, there was hesitation on acceleration - all things that detracted dramatically from the driving experience.

What compares to the Boxster? As you say, not much directly. Even the Cayman is not direct competition (even though 98% of the car is the same) as the hardtop creates significantly greater torsional rigidity - as one would expect - and therefore better handling. Speaking of the Cayman, you refer to Motor Trend magazine and, while I am not really a fan, I did note that in this month's issue they gave the new Cayman a rave review and referred to the fact that they had selected the last Cayman as the wolrd's best driver's car, or some such thing, over a bunch of exotics costing way more.

Anyway, I'll check out the net in reference to your new wheels. I suspect that it wil be a total blast. Trust me, I am not anti-North American vehicles and, apart from those I have owned, have fond memories of the old Transam series, having gone to both Mosport and Watkins Glen in the early 70's to watch the 'pony cars' go at it. A friend of mine had a 1966 Shelby GT350 with posi-traction and I loved that car.

Bottom line - enjoy the new Stang!

Brad

[stephen wilson]

I think the point is lap times alone are not a true measure of "handling". Fast lap times can result from horsepower, cornering grip, or a combination. You're comparing a #3650 medium wheelbase vehicle to a #2950 short wheelbase one, guess which is going to slalom better?

I case you're wondering, I love muscle cars, I own a '65 Mustang, but not for their nimble maneuvering!

On the flip side, the Boxster could be called a bloated pig compared to an Elise!

[darknight]

Originally Posted by DEye

Hello SoutherStar,

So having that much experience with multiple cars over the years you can certainly appreciate their differences and the *endearing aspects* of each.

I try to stay away from the "Religious Crusades" but it is difficult at times, one cannot but defend the vehicle they own for the reasons they purchased it and the characteristics they have come to enjoy about cars.

- I am done here, I do hope there is a porsche in my future, but I doubt it will be a Boxster. ( my height and roll bar requirements to track the car, IMS althrough fixed in later models )
So I would appreciate my account being deleted in the interest of my no longer annoying anyone here with my non Boxster posts

So long and thanks for all the Fish,
Don

I cannot say that I have been truly annoyed by anyones post that I have read here.

We all need to drive what feels right to us and it is unfortunate that anyone is avoiding the 986/996 series due to the IMS. It takes an hour TOPS, above what you will spend replacing a clutch, to address Porsche's oversight with this motor. If you cannot afford this upgrade, then you do not have any business looking at most any sports car. These cars are not designed to the price-point of a front wheel-drive, four-banger econobox.

While there may be other brand of convertible sports cars, I cannot think of many mid-engined sports cars, let alone one that offer the experience that Porsche has engineered into these cars!

[southernstar]

Moving from Mustangs back to Porsche Boxsters, there has been some debate about the pricing of used Boxsters recently under the 'How long does it take once an IMS starts to go' and the 'Test drove a 981' threads that would probably be better here. While many others seem to disagree, I believe that the prices for good examples of 986 Boxsters (particularly early ones) may have bottomed; what is more, I believe that in the relatively near and long-term future, there is good reason to believe that they will start to go up. Herewith my top ten reasons:

1. The 986 Boxster was a seminal design for Porsche, not only because it likely saved the marque, but because a very large number of people (well beyond what Porsche had experienced before) had a positive emotional response to the design.
Indeed, Porsche recognized this early on and one need look no further than the 'Porsche 986 Boxster 'Love Story' video narrated by Patrick Stewart, to see how the car was intended to and did tug at the heart-strings of so many. It is noteworthy that Porsche has not produced a similar video for either of the subsequent iterations of the Boxster (the 987 and 981).

2. The design was a unique mix of vintage styling cues combined with completely state of the art engineering. It harkens back to the famous (or as the death car of James Dean, infamous) Porsche 550 Spyder and cannot be confused for anything else but a mid-engined Porsche. The subsequent design changes - minor cosmetic efforts to modernize in 2003, the more modern and angular 987 and the much more modern and angular (and dare I say generic) 981, have all moved further away from the historical influences of Porsche's first mid-engined car, the giant-killing 550 Spyder.

3. The car's steering, turn-in, braking and handling were all beyond reproach for a car intended to be a 'driver's car' and road tests at the time were virtually unanimous with praise. The only knock was that, while quick, the Boxster's chassis was so good that it was clearly capable of handling much more power. True enough - and Porsche in fact addressed the complaint to a significant degree with the introduction of the 2.7 Base and 3.2 'S' model in the the 2000 model year and, with slight additional increases in BHP and torque (albeit with additional weight) in the 2003 model year. Regardless, one must remember that Porsche's reputation was built upon cars that were able to compete head to head on the track with cars that had much more horsepower and torque: the 550 Spyder and its 4 cylinder engine with Maseratis, Ferraris, Jaguars and various 'specials' with American V8 engines; the early 911's and their 6 cylinder engines with various Corvettes, Sunbeam Tigers, Cobras and production based Ferraris, etc.

4. For a car that was still quite expensive ($ 39,995.00 base in 1997 with various expensive additional option packages), the numbers sold by Porsche reflected the incredible interest that it had generated. What is more, it is clear that over and above the number of purchasers, there were a great many more who lusted after one in the late 90's but could not afford the purchase price. I was one of those persons. Recently I spoke to a 27 year old who said that the 'original Boxster" was the car of his dreams when he first took interest in sports cars as a twelve year old. Is it unreasonable to assume that, since prices for good examples of early 986's are now less than many used economy cars with similar mileage, a number of those people would love to have an 'original' 986 Boxster for nostalgic reasons?

5. Since many U.S. states permit classic car registration 20 years after manufacturing date, the early 986 Boxsters are also close to attaining classic car status. For some this will enhance the image of owning an older Boxster. Indeed, I would suggest that with the introduction of the 981 Boxster, the 986 Boxster has already moved past being merely a used Porsche/the previous model of Boxster/ a dated car, to being the 'original' Porsche Boxster (as it was described by the 27 yeasr old I have already referred to). This is significant if one believes, as I do, that like the 911, the Boxster is part of Porsche's long-term plans. This distinguishes it from other entry-level Porsche's such as the 912, 914, 924 and 944 which were eliminated as models after their initial model-run. The cars will benefit from this sense of 'lineage' or 'ancestry' that also benefits the early 911's, but which did not benefit even more expensive models such as the 928.


6. Although the early 986's are now getting long in the tooth, they still present an incredible driving experience. This reputation can only be enhanced by the fact that the original 986 Boxster 2.5 has recently been chosen by the SCCA and PCA as a 'spec' racing class. For those who have forgotten about the passion that was generated by the 986, these races will act as a reminder. For others too young to have been around when they were introduced, it will create recognition of the model.

7. Many owners of classic or collectible cars love to be able to take them on road trips. Unfortunately, most early sports cars (and especially roadsters) tend to be uncomfortable and to lack sufficent luggage space for anything but an over-niter. On the other hand, the 986 had ergonomics, HVAC controls and trunk space that made it (and still make it) quite suitable for road trips: it was the first Porsche with state of the art HVAC that could defrost the interior windows (and keep them clear) in inclement weather; and, its dual trunks provide unusually large and flexible luggage space for a roadster.

8. The PCA (Porsche Club of America) has a huge membership (much larger than any other imported sports car) and puts on a large number of national and regional events, including social events, driver training, track days, car shows/judging, parts discounts, etc., etc. A 986 Boxster is a relatively cheap entre to this exclusive club and the events will prove popular to those who are interested in a collectible car.

9. In terms of a collectible car, while the fact that the 986 was produced in such large numbers will undoubtedly keep the prices from ever becoming extremely high, nevertheless:

- over the passage to time, the number of excellent examples has rapidly diminished. This is being accentuated by the fact that many who have been able to purchase these cars at low prices over the last few years, are unwilling/unable to maintain them to a high standard. While a 986 Boxster may now be priced like an economy car, it is decidedly not an ecomony car, nor are the parts and maintenance costs!

- even cars that were sold in much larger numbers than the 986 Boxster can become collectibles with appreciating values. Consdier the Mustangs from 1965 through 1970. They too were cars that brought about a strong emotional response in large numbers of people. Many who wanted but could not afford one (or were too young to buy one) at the time, have now purchased them as collectibles. Early passions die slowly, if at all. Put another way, does anyone ever forget their first love? The 986 Boxster, like the Mustang, is that kind of car.

- good parts availability. The fact that so many 986 Boxsters were built means that there will continue to be a large supply of used parts (and with lack of maintenance and the passage of time, many cars currently on the road will soon become parts cars). The large numbers also mean that many companies will continue to make replacement/reproduction parts.

10. The release of statistics by Porsche in the course of the class-action lawsuit concerning IMS bearing failures should provide some real comfort to prospective purchasers of 986 Boxsters. Unlike some of the alarmist claims on the internet (all IMS bearings will eventually fail!), it is now clear that failure is either relatively rare (in the case of the later single-row bearings at 8 - 10%) or exceedingly rare (in the case of the earlier double-row bearings at much less than 1%). Whatever impact that this has had on resale prices (and for those who have checked on the internet prior to purchase, it surely must have frightened away at least some buyers), these numbers should stop the hysteria. Lets face it, uncertainty about something that could lead to complete engine failure and potential replacement costs in excess of the value of the car can't be good for demand.

In addition, the upgraded IMS bearings that are now available (and which can be installed for very little additional labour costs over a clutch replacement) should all but eliminate this as a cause for concern for purchasers who see these as collectible cars, rather than daily drivers.

Brad

[986_inquiry]

Originally Posted by southernstar

In addition, the upgraded IMS bearings that are now available (and which can be installed for very little additional labour costs over a clutch replacement) should all but eliminate this as a cause for concern for purchasers who see these as collectible cars, rather than daily drivers.

Brad

I do need to point out that their are two "upgrades" to the IMS: the "IMS Retrofit" and "IMS Solution".

IMS Retrofit | The LN Engineering IMS Retrofit Kit for MY97-05 Porsche Boxster and 911 Models

The IMS Retrofit is an upgrade but not a fix, IMS can still occur but is much less likely. Current price for the part is $650. Porsche essentially installed this in 2006+ 987/997.

IMS Solution does away with the bearings that would fail. It's currently $1,500

Then there is the IMS Guardian which is basically a magnet on a sensor that warns you if there are metal shavings in the oil. That's currently $260-$410.

IMHO every 1997-2008 porsche owner should have at least a Guardian. I will be having one installed come next oil change, since the sensor replaced the oil plug it's best to install when oil is drained. Even with a 2006 I worry, and IMS failure is not the only reason metal may be in the oil.

[southernstar]

986inquiry, I did not say that the IMS upgrades make IMS bearing failure impossible - only that "they should all but eliminate it as a cause for concern". When one considers the relatively low failure rate of the original bearings (and extremely low in the case of the original dual-row), I stand by that comment.

With respect to the larger bearings introduced by Porsche in the 2006-2008 model year, I did not understand that they were ceramic. In any event, while there are a number of reasons that one can get metal filings in the oil, there is nothing to suggest that failure of any of these parts occurs in the engines at anything beyond normal frequencies. All engines can fail and those with poor maintenance schedules are, of course, much more likely to suffer internal failures. My point was that there is no longer a need for paranoia on the part of owners of these engines.

Brad

[southernstar]

The problem with a site such as this is that people typically only post when they have had a problem. This leads to a slanted view of the cars as a whole, particularly since the original 986 Boxsters are now between 10 and 17 years old (the 2014 MY starts production in the next month). What sort of reilability would one expect from a 10, let alone 17 year old Toyota that was driven as hard as most Porsches? Herewith my list of positves in terms of reliability/durability of the Boxster, based upon my own experience, as well as the reports reviewed on this and other sites:

1. BODY/PAINT - Porsche's fully galvanized, laser welded bodies are as rust resistant as a steel body can be made. I have yet to see a rusted 986 Porsche, even when driven on salted roads in northern climates. Most Boxsters still have their original paint and, apart from dents and stone damage, have a finish that has held up remarkably well. Compare that to Toyotas, Mazdas, Nissans etc. of the same vintage.

2. TOP - Excellent quaility German cloth tops and a well-engineered convertible top mechanism that has proven remarkably reliable compared to many other convertible tops, in spite of its complexity. Due to the numbers produced, replacement tops are readily available at low cost.

3. INTERIOR - Sometimes criticized for cheap-looking materials, even the interiors in original Boxsters have held up remarkably well over the years - especially for an interior that is often exposed to direct sunlight. Have you ever seen a cracked dash in a Boxster?

4. BRAKES - Unlike many cars where calipers need replacement with almost every brake job, the Brembo 4 piston monoblock calipers have proven to be not only very effective, but remarkably durable.

5. STEERING - Not only does it provide accuracy and incredible feedback, but few owners have had to replace rack and pinion gears, steering racks and power-steering pumps. Compare that to the frequently replaced (at over $3000.00) electric power steering units on the BMW Z3 and Z4!

TRANSMISSION/CLUTCH - Unless abused (not unusual in cars that rev high and are often shifted quickly and sometimes inexpertly), the transmissions rarely fail. Compare that to the epidemic of failures in the Chrysler minivan, which is rarely driven hard! Clutches too can last up to 200,000 miles (see Pedro, of pderosboard), even when tracked. Go for high rev starts with the big rear tires, or fail to match revs on upshifts/downshifts, and yes, you can burn them out quickly. Drive them smoothly and they tend to last for a considerable period for a performance car.

SUSPENSION - Yes, ball joints cannot be replaced separately, but in cars that are not abused/driven on very rough roads, it is common to get 80 - 100,000 miles before components need replacement. Considering the stress that the suspension gets in hard cornering with relatively stiff springs and bushings (all required for precise handling), that isn't bad!

ELECTRICAL SYSTEM - A vast improvement over earlier German cars, Boxsters rarely have failures with their charging system, instrument clusters, power top/window motors and digital HVAC controls. The only common failures not due to abuse are the ignition switch (a $35.00 part from Audi and about 1.5 hours labour) and. less frequently, the light switch (an easy, if slightly more expensive fix). The immobilizers can fail if people allow water to accumulate in the car due to poor maintenance - holes in the back window, failure to clean out the drains, leaving the top down in the rain.

COOLING SYSTEM - Remarkably good for a mid-engine design, which required radiators and fans in the front for an engine with air ducting fans in the rear. Compare the reliability with mid-engined Italian cars (including the early Fiat X-19's, not to mention Ferraris and Lambos, etc) and you'll see what I mean. Yes, some people have issues with the waterpump (although some last for over 200,000 miles with proper cooling system maintenance). Yes, coolant reservoir tanks have been known to fail, but what does one expect of a plastic piece that held extremely hot fluid under pressure for that number of years? Fortunately, neither is a terribly expensive repair and, the radiators, fans and even the hoses have proven to be remarkably reliable.

ENGINE - Apart from the A/OS (another now aged plastic piece that is relatively inexpensive to repair) AND IMS BEARINGS, these engines have also proven to be highly reliable if properly maintained. Even the IMS failure rate (much less than 1% for early dual-row bearings and 8-10% for later single-row), are not that horrible when one considers that this is regardless of age, mileage and maintenance schedule. In any event, there are fixes available.

Overall, for an old performance car that is typically driven hard, pretty good durability and reliablity IMO!

Brad

[TripleTrophy]

I am looking at buying used. I have a Porsche specialist tentatively lined up for a PPI, and possibly oil change and filter cut, depending on the maintenance of the car(s) I end up looking at. Out of curiosity, if someone had done a recent oil change, how long for the chips to show up in a new filter? Should I be suspicious of a very recent oil change? Also, where do I find the serial number on the engine, if I wanted to check if it has been swapped out?

I have visions of driving it to get it inspected and the engine blowing up on me, but that is probably just paranoia.

Right now there is a black 2002 S calling me with 29 K miles on it, I found a 2001 S with 84K miles for $5K less, but I am not sure I like the color or the miles.

Thanks in advance.

[recycledsixtie]

Originally Posted by TripleTrophy

I am looking at buying used. I have a Porsche specialist tentatively lined up for a PPI, and possibly oil change and filter cut, depending on the maintenance of the car(s) I end up looking at. Out of curiosity, if someone had done a recent oil change, how long for the chips to show up in a new filter? Should I be suspicious of a very recent oil change? Also, where do I find the serial number on the engine, if I wanted to check if it has been swapped out?

I have visions of driving it to get it inspected and the engine blowing up on me, but that is probably just paranoia.

Right now there is a black 2002 S calling me with 29 K miles on it, I found a 2001 S with 84K miles for $5K less, but I am not sure I like the color or the miles.

Thanks in advance.

A couple of things I would suggest. I don't have all the answers here. When you test drive a car, before you start it , turn key on before starting to make sure all warning lites illuminate especially the CEL light. If the CEL lite does not illuminate before starting, then I would suggest you walk. Once started all lites should extinguish.

I would think that if the oil filter had been changed and the ims bearing was grinding then there would be more metal. Still a good idea to drop the filter and check it.

Try different Boxsters. In 10k miles my 2001 base Boxster makes a lot more rattles and different noises than when I got it. If the PPI is satisfactory to you and has problems you can either walk or deduct the cost of repairs off the asking price.If you or the owner drives it to the PPI place, if it implodes it still is not your car so you are not responsible except if your are negligent(overrev etc). Others will chime in. Good luck with your purchase. It is a fun car!