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Old 08-02-2004, 07:03 PM   #1
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986S vs. 987 base

The most interesting tidbit regarding the 987 base from that article from autoweek.com
http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_code=carnews&loc_code=&content_code=09618290

Was "...2.7-liter flat six producing about 238 hp and better low-end torque."

Yes the 987 base will have better torque with 2.7L than the 986 base also with 2.7L. Someone said it was impossible to get more torque without increasing engine size. Well, I guess Porsche figured out a way (assuming this rumor to be true). If this is true consider the following rumors so far regarding the 987 base:

1) HP anywhere from 238 - 248.
2) More low-end torque.
3) Suspension improvements. Note that reports regarding the 997 base have it having much better handling than the 996 C2. we can expect a similar big improvement in handling in the 987 base vs. 986S (current 986 base has same suspension as the S)

If the above are true, is it possible the 987 base will have better performance than the current 986S? Keep in mind the 987 base will weigh less than the current 986S due to its smaller engine (but more torque than current 986 base) and 5 speed (vs. 6 speed).

WOW- imagine the 987 base having better performance than the 986S. Something for 'S' shoppers to keep in mind. Don't fall for those heavy discounts. You might be very sorry in 5 - 6 months if the 987 base has better performance than your 'S'.

As for me, my plan is to upgrade my '00 base to the '05 987S (assuming there are no tranny issues).

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Old 08-03-2004, 05:00 PM   #2
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Re: 986S vs. 987 base

Quote:
Originally posted by Another S in S

we can expect a similar big improvement in handling in the 987 base vs. 986S (current 986 base has same suspension as the S)

If the above are true, is it possible the 987 base will have better performance than the current 986S? Keep in mind the 987 base will weigh less than the current 986S due to its smaller engine (but more torque than current 986 base) and 5 speed (vs. 6 speed).

WOW- imagine the 987 base having better performance than the 986S. Something for 'S' shoppers to keep in mind. Don't fall for those heavy discounts. You might be very sorry in 5 - 6 months if the 987 base has better performance than your 'S'.

As for me, my plan is to upgrade my '00 base to the '05 987S (assuming there are no tranny issues). [/B]
I heard/read differently. I heard the suspension is essentially the same and being carried over from the 986. The base 986 does not have the same suspension setup as the 986 S. I believe the roll bars are thicker and the springs are stiffer than in your 00 base(among other things). This basically gives it more competent steering as evidenced by numerous tests. One example is the Road and Track I have sitting next to the ****************ter. It's backlog of road-tests indicate the the S does the slalom at 73mph(faster than the Carrera Gt they tested and only slightly slower than one car, the Enzo). The base did the same slalom at 68 mph. 5 mph difference in the slalom is ENORMOUS. The S also pulls slightly harder on the skidpad(.95 to .92 I believe). If the suspension on these two cars are the same then why does the S literally run circles around the base in the slalom and also outdo it at the skidpad? The tires may be slightly wider on the S but there is no way 10mm more width of tire tread is going to give you 5 mph in the slalom. For all I know they may have tested a base with 225/265 tires which is the same as the S.

The 238hp 987 base will probabbly not be any faster than a 258hp 986 S. It will be maybe a 100lbs lighter than the 986 s if that. And you say "oh it will have the 5 spd too, not the 6 spd" like this it is going to be an advantage at the drag strip or something. Let me get this through your head because it obviously didn't sink in before when Lux and I said it. THE 5 SPD IS SLOWER THAN THE SIX SPD. If it can do better than a 13.7 sec 1/4 mile run then I will buy you a 987 S. Don't hold your breath Thankyou. Have a nice day

Last edited by Adam; 08-03-2004 at 05:05 PM.
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Old 08-03-2004, 05:36 PM   #3
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Here you go. Here's a novel concept, back up claims with facts.


2003 Porsche Boxster S
Specifications Base price$51,600 Price as tested$57,905 Vehicle layoutMid-engine, rwd, 2-door, 2-pass EngineFlat-6 DOHC, 4 valves/cyl Displacement, ci/cc194.3 / 3179 Max horsepower @ rpm258 @ 6250 Max torque @ rpm229 @ 4500 Transmission6-speed manual Curb weight, lb2999 0-60 mph, sec5.3 1/4 mile, sec @ mph13.76 @ 102.08
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Old 08-03-2004, 06:28 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by Adam
Here you go. Here's a novel concept, back up claims with facts.


2003 Porsche Boxster S
Specifications Base price$51,600 Price as tested$57,905 Vehicle layoutMid-engine, rwd, 2-door, 2-pass EngineFlat-6 DOHC, 4 valves/cyl Displacement, ci/cc194.3 / 3179 Max horsepower @ rpm258 @ 6250 Max torque @ rpm229 @ 4500 Transmission6-speed manual Curb weight, lb2999 0-60 mph, sec5.3 1/4 mile, sec @ mph13.76 @ 102.08
Huh? what's this supposed to prove? BTW- the '03 base DOES have the same suspension as the '03 S. It may even go back to '02, not sure about that.
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Old 08-03-2004, 06:36 PM   #5
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I said that the box S can do 13.7's and I just wanted to back up what I said. The other stuff is irrelavent and to be disregarded. Like I said before, if the base 987 can beat that I will eat my words. I don't think it will.

I am almost certain that the boxster test results in R&T are at least from a base 02. I think you are right about the 03 and maybe the 02 having the same suspension, however this doesn't explain why the base had it's ass handed to it in the slalom by the S. Maybe it was a freak S because it slalomed faster than a Gt2 and C-Gt.
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Last edited by Adam; 08-03-2004 at 06:41 PM.
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Old 08-03-2004, 08:23 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by Adam
I said that the box S can do 13.7's and I just wanted to back up what I said. The other stuff is irrelavent and to be disregarded. Like I said before, if the base 987 can beat that I will eat my words. I don't think it will.

I am almost certain that the boxster test results in R&T are at least from a base 02. I think you are right about the 03 and maybe the 02 having the same suspension, however this doesn't explain why the base had it's ass handed to it in the slalom by the S. Maybe it was a freak S because it slalomed faster than a Gt2 and C-Gt.
Speaking of freak S's, did you read that post recently on ppbb.com where someone's S was dyno'ed at ~ 210HP? Don't be so sure you can beat a base. And an expert driver in a base will beat YOU in your S 0 - 60, 1/4 mile, on any track, any day.
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Old 08-03-2004, 08:46 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by Another S in S
Speaking of freak S's, did you read that post recently on ppbb.com where someone's S was dyno'ed at ~ 210HP? Don't be so sure you can beat a base. And an expert driver in a base will beat YOU in your S 0 - 60, 1/4 mile, on any track, any day.
Latest Motortrend has an article comparing the S to the Z4, etc. 0-60 in 5.3 seconds and the 1/4 in 13.8 @ 102.4 mph. Read 'em and weep.

So now it's come down to Schumacher vs. Grandma? You're pathetic. But it is humorous.
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Old 08-04-2004, 05:50 PM   #8
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re" " this doesn't explain why the base had it's ass handed to it in the slalom by the S"

The Boxster in the prior R&T tests used the stock suspension. the late 02-early 03 update was from an S with the M030 option - Sport chassis rigidly tuned ($690 on 02S.)
Sport Chasis =
More rigid Springs & Shocks
bigger (front) stabilizer bar

According to the 02 sales literature the S has
bigger stabilizer bars,
bigger(doubled) wheel bearings,
longer rear axle control arms

- - -

my S has the setup in the R&T test. It may not be the best, but it is gratifying to have the worlds second fastest slalom numbers for a production car - especially given that the fastest cost about $1 million more than my car.

More gratifying than the numbers is how my stock 986S does on the road - Ask the 3 guys in the 996TT that I tailed for about 70 miles on Sunday - what a blast!

Ad Sach

PS. my R&T information is old, I let the subscription lapse last fall.
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Old 08-04-2004, 05:54 PM   #9
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re: "As for me, my plan is to upgrade my '00 base to the '05 987S (assuming there are no tranny issues)."

A S in S - I hope you do get a 987S because I look forward to a day when you stop your S bashing posts.
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Old 08-04-2004, 07:08 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ad Sach
re: "As for me, my plan is to upgrade my '00 base to the '05 987S (assuming there are no tranny issues)."

A S in S - I hope you do get a 987S because I look forward to a day when you stop your S bashing posts.
You might considering it bashing, others, especially those contemplating buying a base or S, might consider it useful. I would certainly want to know about these issues if I were comtemplating a big car purchase. If you want me to stop presenting my information, go write to Excellence magazine, go write to CFG and all the others I've quoted that had negative things to say about the 6 speed, and get them to retract THEIR negative analysis and comments, and only then will I stop. I'm just the messenger.

BTW, even if I get the 987S (again assuming it has a matched tranny) I'm still going to continue with my presentation of facts regarding the '00 - '04 986S. Heck if the 987S has a tranny issue I'll let the light be known with that model as well. I do have some integrity you know.
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Old 08-04-2004, 08:22 PM   #11
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I really appreciate all of the opinions of the S and the Base.

The information seems to be factual and is informative.

I come here to learn more then I know now.

So please don't stop with all the info...

Thank you...

Bickering is cool it's like a family of Porsche people..

Thank god it's not BS like some of the other forums...

Long Live Porsche...
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Old 08-04-2004, 08:23 PM   #12
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Adsach, was the m030 option available for 03 S's? Damn, I should have gotten that option. If I was ever interested in a retrofit would it be expensive? Not that the S is any kind of a slouch in the turns now but you can always go faster am I right? Any downsides/tradeoffs going with the m030? How does it ride?
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Old 08-04-2004, 08:36 PM   #13
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Another S in S,

Since you love quoting magazines so much, maybe you should read the fine print at the end of the Road & Track road test summary. In there you will find what they consider to be a "significant difference when comparing cars"...as they put it.

Then if you look at the numbers of the S vs the Base you will see that all of the acceleration and handling numbers fall under the "significant difference" category.

But I'm sure your dog can't tell the difference so there must not be one.

Long live the S!

Last edited by Lux; 08-04-2004 at 08:42 PM.
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Old 08-04-2004, 09:24 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lux
Another S in S,

Since you love quoting magazines so much, maybe you should read the fine print at the end of the Road & Track road test summary. In there you will find what they consider to be a "significant difference when comparing cars"...as they put it.

Then if you look at the numbers of the S vs the Base you will see that all of the acceleration and handling numbers fall under the "significant difference" category.

But I'm sure your dog can't tell the difference so there must not be one.

Long live the S!
One of my principles is to always consider the source of my information. Do I trust an authorative Porsche only magazine like Excellence or listen to what some generic car rag like Road & Track has to say? I put more weight on Excellence, and Excellence says the base is the better buy than the S and the base shifts better than the S.

One of your problems is you take your information at face value without considering its source and merit.

If you want to start quoting from magazines, which BTW is a big improvement than making up your own data and illogical reasonings, use Excellence, Panorama, or some other authoritative source and not some generic car rag (Motor Trend is the worst. Motor Trend is a truck mag pretending to be a car mag)
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Old 08-04-2004, 09:31 PM   #15
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I subscribe to Panorama and it seems like they barely ever say anything negative about the porsches they test. They are in bed with Stuttgart. Sounds like Excellence is in the same boat. Talk about checking one's sources. i would trust C&D or automobile long before the magazines you listed.
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Last edited by Adam; 08-04-2004 at 09:33 PM.
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Old 08-04-2004, 09:43 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Adam
I subscribe to Panorama and it seems like they barely ever say anything negative about the porsches they test. They are in bed with Stuttgart. Sounds like Excellence is in the same boat. Talk about checking one's sources. i would trust C&D or automobile long before the magazines you listed.
Have you not been paying attention? Excellence had plenty of negative things to say about the S!

P.S. Skyler is a piece of work. I don't understand him. He goes off and fights in the army, but he's against free speech. Any way my ISP changes IP# every few days so I can sneek in a message now and then. It's funny to see ballsak try to guess if it's me or not. I guess he's a little paranoid.
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Old 08-05-2004, 04:31 AM   #17
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re" Adsach, was the m030 option available for 03 S's? "

m030 has been a number for factory tuned suspension since long before the Boxster. It has been used on the 911/964/993/996 and I suppose on the 92x/94x cars as well. Probably the only Porsches that don't have the m030 option are GT2, Carrera GT, etc(think of it as standard).

For the Boxster the m030 springs are progressive so that they are both a little softer during the first 1/2 inch of travel and firmer during harder bumps.

The ROW(Rest Of the World) 030 is about 1/2 inch lower than US all around. Lowering is a help for serious cornering as it allows one to dial in more front and rear negative camber in a 4-wheel alignment. This is helpful to the Boxster as it is camber challenged (I max out at -0.8 front, -2.0 rear - my wifes BMW came fixed from the factory at about -2.8 rear). Because of the lowering folks who add 030 in this country usually purchase the ROW030 springs.

H&R and a handful of other companies make respectable lowering springs.

The most popular suspension upgrade in the last several months has been Bilstein PSS9 - though folks complain about the lack of adjustable rebound damping, the results of folks who have installed them has generally been very positive.

If you are serious about suspension and other performance upgrades, you might want to make it a habit to monitor the Boxster Racing Board. These are real drivers who give real opinions on the mods they have done- often with DYNO and lap numbers. http://www.iq.dynip.com/~racing/index.cgi/index.cgi?
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Old 08-05-2004, 04:54 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Another S in S
You might considering it bashing, others, especially those contemplating buying a base or S, might consider it useful. I would certainly want to know about these issues if I were comtemplating a big car purchase. If you want me to stop presenting my information, go write to Excellence magazine, go write to CFG and all the others I've quoted that had negative things to say about the 6 speed, and get them to retract THEIR negative analysis and comments, and only then will I stop. I'm just the messenger.
I do consider it bashing because I have never seen you mention this as part of a FULL and BALANCED analysis of the differences between the Base and the S. If you mentioned your opinions on the 6-speed as an aside among other factors like trim level, torque, speed, mileage it wouldn't be bashing.

As far as asking the mags to retract thier analysis, that it (to quote Joey on friends) ' a moo point' - it wouldn't matter to a cow. The magazines have no problem creating a forum for thier opinions and analysis and don't need our help or hindrance. The ones I have read presented thier opinions about the 6 speed in one or two lines among a longer article. Considering the depth of experience of actual owners on the internet - the opinions of magazines are comparitively 'skin deep'.


I've been carefully reading your posts to see if they contained any useful information for potential buyers, and I honestly don't see it.

Useful information might be - some owners have had problems with 2nd gear when the transmission is cold and have had replacement transmissions under warrantee.

Useful information might be - Some drivers find the relatively close ratios between 3rd and 6th more gears than they need an routinely shift from 3rd to 5th after reaching freeway cruising speeds.

Useful information might be - The Boxster shift linkage is precise but has longer throws on both the 5-speed and 6-speed than cars in it's class. For those who find this a problem, This can be corrected by installing an (aftermarket) B&M shifter.

The opinions you present as information have been repeated ad nauseum for 2 years or more. I hadn't heard that the deputies on PPBB had been blocking you - but it stands to reason. If most of the Boxster community disagrees with you and rejects the repetition of your poorly substantiated and reasoned statements, it might not be a problem with the Boxster community.
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Old 08-05-2004, 08:14 AM   #19
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There is something to be said for being the devil's advocate, but there is always a point where you need to throw in the towel and accept reasoning...or at least shut up.

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Old 08-05-2004, 10:45 AM   #20
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Speculation, speculation, speculation. Let's just see what happens when they show up.

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