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I read where the 2.7 motor blows up for no real reason...
.... and under just normal driving conditions.....most with lower mileage. I read this on another Boxster forum. :( Is the 3.2 motor at risk for the same thing? :confused:
From what I understand the intermediate shaft fails and locks the engine up, and other cases a timing chain failure was mentioned. Since the 3.2 is just a bored and stroked 2.7, it makes me a bit uneasy since my car is out of warranty. :confused: Between the RMS and this motor blowing up thing (if it is true) I find it hard to believe Porsche builts such poorly designed engines. The post 77 911 Carrera motors seem to be ultra reliable, what gives with this Boxster design ? :mad: |
Hmm...
Hey Silver,
I don't have any useful information on the specific failures you're uncovering. Could you provide a link to the data? Also, FWIW, I'm approaching 78K miles with no issues on my MY00 2.7L. Additionally, I think the 3.2 achieves it's +500cc with a larger bore...stroke being identical. Thanks, --ts |
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Say it ain't so Joe... Unfortunately it is. The 2.7L (M96/22, M96/23), and the 3.2L (M96/21, M96/24) suffers from a redesign where Porsche added a larger bearing on the Intermediate Shaft (#6 in the Pic below, Flange Bearing on the sprocket end) to supposedly reduce vibration. As a result, failure of this shaft has become much more prevelant than in the 2.5L - (M96/20). It also affects the M96/77 engine on the 996 to essentially the same degree, and they're starting to see it on the 987/997s as well, so don't feel like you're alone. What happens is that the bolt which fixes the shaft on the rear (Flywheel side) of the engine breaks allowing the shaft to whip around internally and take out everything in it's path. This failure takes the #2 spot behind RMS failure. There is nothing you can do to prevent, or forestall, these failures. But, realize that you are one of the Priviledged Few (yea, right) to own one of these magnificent cars, so what if you have to occasionally flip $1k-$12k for a new motor to keep it running by putting the same design-flawed engine back in it? Stop your whining! There is NO reason to forgive mediocrety in engine design when a variety of makes (including many American made cars) are able to produce high powered, sophisticated, engines that easily survive 200K miles without leaks or breakdowns. There are bound to be defenders of the Marque (most of whom have not yet succumbed to these failings I suspect), who'll dispute this in one form, or another. But, Porsche engine reliability is a Myth, pure and simple. They have had Casting and Web failures and flaws going all the way back to the 356 engine, eventually, they will ALL fail, though some of the AC engines will go 200k mi. before doing so. And because the all-new M96 engines are So Great and so much better than all the old rubbish, Porsche still has to use the old crankcases for their Turbo and GT3 engines. But, you have to shell out the really BIG bucks if you want to play with those... Happy Motoring!... Jim'99 |
My neighbor has an 04 2.7 engine. She replaced the motor at 11K miles due to the shaft failure mentioned above.
Warranty covered it all. For what it is worth. |
Can someone tranlsate as to what the M96/xx engine refers to? Is it simply the motor that has been used for the 2.7 and 3.2 since the Boxster started using them? Or is it specific to model years or VIN's?
Thanks! Sammy :D |
Wow ! I have never been so happy I bought a 1999 !
Nick |
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I've been giving advice to a few friends that 2000-2002 seems to be the "safest" engine years since they don't have the porous engine blocks of the 97-99 and don't have these I.S. failures from the redesign. All other notorious problems like the RMS seem to happen to all years. I think the Consumer Reports tracking by year backs this up. |
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Porsche uses the basic engine - the M96 in all Boxsters, Caymans, and 911 Carreras. The last two characters describe which Bosche Motronic version (DME Software) is used. The 2007 Porsche Carerra uses the new M97/01, an M96 derivative, the M97 contains so many newly designed internals as to deserve a new designation according to Porsche. The Carerra GT's V10 is designated the M80. The 2.5L Boxster uses the M96/20 with Bosch M 5.2.2 Motronic. The 2000-2002 uses the 2.7L M96/22 and the 3.2 L (S model) M96/21, both with Bosch ME 7.2 Motronic. The 2003-2007 uses the 2.7L M96/22 and the 3.2 L (S model) M96/24, both with Bosch ME 7.8 Motronic. Hope this helps... Happy Motoring!... Jim'99 |
I might have misread a post below so please excuse my ignorance...
So is or isn't my 2002 Boxster S prone to this failure? |
Hey Jim
What is the callout for a 2001 996 3.4l and which motrinic version does it run?? TIA |
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Great! All my thrill of owning a Porsche just went out the window. I should have bought the S2000 :( |
I wouldn't worry so much-
I've got an 01 2.7 with 46K miles, and the only mechanical problems I've ever had was a leaking coolant tank that was replaced on warranty. No RMS, no shaft failure, nothing. I have friend who has put over 100K on his 00 3.2, and has never had a mechanical issue on his car either.
In fact, this car has been more reliable than my previous car, a Benz CLK. |
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That is the M96/05 and it uses Bosch Motronic 7.2... Happy Motoring!... Jim'99 |
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That isn't at all rare. It's not like every Porsche M96 engine is gonna implode. It's just that too many of them do, waay more than should from a manufacturer like Porsche. In fact, the odds are with you, just not to anywhere near the same degree they are with some other choices out there. RMS affects only about 1 car in 4 (25%) or 5 (20%), and Intermediate shaft Failure probably (total guesstimate here as no polls or such have been done to my knowledge) seems more like 10%-15%. In other words, having the engine implode on you isn't that rare either, unfortunately. But considering that in a BMW, MB, Honda, MX-5, Lexus, etc. these odds drop to the low single digit %s, this double-digit % failure rate is waay too high for a car with the Price Point and the provenance of a Porsche. And, it's something potential buyers need to be more aware of, rather than less. The Hood Badge is very shiney, but the reputation and the facts are much less so. Many Buyers cannot see past the Badge, at least not until the reality and possibility of these failures bites them in the *$$. A lot of Buyers would willingly sacrifice some of the feeling, exclusivity, provenance, and even performance for the sake of greater reliability. A miata may not measure up exactly to a Boxster, but it doesn't have the potential to drain your wallet nearly so fast either... Happy Motoring!... Jim'99 |
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I guess I have no choice since I bought it already .... I'll just keep my fingers crossed. I was buying this boxster on the impression it was going to be as reliable as my old 3.2 Carrera engine, which by the way have been known to easily go 250,000 miles or better. Honestly, I guess I didn't do my homework on this one and guess I will just hope for the best. The few miles that I've driven so far have been good but I may not keep it that long unless I hear some better stats on the failures. |
I don't expect Honda or Toyota reliability from a Porsche (although that's what I'm getting now). Heck, if I wanted that, I'd get a Toyota! ;)
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1 in 4 or 5 is WAYYYY too high. Having this in the back of your mind takes allot of the fun out of it. Particularly when you are tracking and autocrossing it. I would be inclined to believe that putting more exertion on the engine will bring a hidden flaw to the surface, whearas casual cruising will delay the onset of an RMS tear.
But Hat's off to BMW and Lexus for simply fixing their problems as soon as its flawed engine designs came to light. But when Porsche is making mo money mo money mo money (albeit less than before) they obviously came more about maximizing profits vs. protecting their reputation. |
We've had this same discussion over and over. I'll say it again...Cars break. All of them break. If the car breaks, fix it. If you don't want to fix it, sell it. But quit yer friggin' whinin' about it.
You are not a prisoner of the Marque. No one is forcing you to own the car. If you don't like your odds and you find others' failure rates more appealing, by all means trade in your junk and buy one of their offerings. Oh, it leaks. Oh, it breaks. Oh, it's not quick enough. Oh, it eats tires. Oh, my Pacer was much more reliable. Oh, my Vega never had these problems. Oh, my Ford dealer never put me through this when my Aspire imploded. Blah, blah, freakin' blah. The car has flaws. The company is not doing enough to correct them. You may have certain difficulties with it. It is an expensive car to fix. It's also the most fun you can have with your clothes on (unless you drive naked and then, well it's immeasurable :D ). If bulletproof reliability is what helps you sleep, buy a Camry. I like beige Camrys with brown corduroy interiors. I think they're very attractive. My Grandmother has one. It leaks...and sometimes...it breaks. |
"We've had this same discussion over and over."
I agree with Grizzly. Perhaps I'll change my mind when my first big problem comes but I have two things I've been meaning to say that may have been overlooked: 1. The failure statistics (1 in 4 or 5) are just estimates. But even if they were confirmed, one could dollarize them as just another addition to the cost of ownership. We already know that there are plenty of cheaper good cars out there that are also cheaper to maintain, too. But the market seems to be pricing in some sort of performance and quality (other than reliability) attributes in a Porsche that differentiate it from the rest. In other words, people are prepared to pay more for a Porsche (in more than one way, and that includes purchase price, maintenance, and increased dollarized cost of potential repair) than for other "comparable" cars. Personally, I could not replicate the experience of driving my Box in any other car I had driven (not even close) and I found the price of that feeling acceptable. Obviously others have too. 2. It's not fair to compare Porsche to Toyota or most other cars out there. I can't prove this but I have a feeling that, on average, Porsches are driven much harder than most other cars out there. They are simply built and optimized for that -- and they are so darn fun when pushed. I would bet that an average Porsche operates multiple times longer in the 4k+ rpm area than an average Lexus, Toyota, or even a BMW, for that matter. An average Porsche would be exposed to much higher G-forces than all of those as well, subjecting the suspension and the engine with all its fluids to much more stress. These must be taken into consideration when comparing failure and reliability statistics, and then apples to apples the differences may not be so "outrageous". Z. |
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Hi, That isn't the point of the discussion here. The point is value and that's what you expect when you pay the premium price for a Porsche. It may drive like stink, but the anxiety factor can heavily dilute any joy you get from that. There are a lot of 1st time Porsche owners in this group, buying pre-owned Boxsters. They aren't necessarily sitting on loads of surplus cash which they can earmark to fix a problem that even Kias don't experience. Add to this that a $12k engine replacement in a $20k-$25k used car, not because it was pressed, but because Porsche chose to design an engine which was simple and cheap to manufacture (not so they could lower their price point, but so they could better line their own coffers) and prone to failure, means that these owners are basically buying a car in the low-mid $30's, but without realizing it. Many would not, or could not do that. If they'd known this upfront, they would have likely gone for a lower priced and performanced, but vastly more reliable, Miata, Mustang or Z3, or one of the Japanese Sport Coupes. And, unlike many other manufacturers who've experienced their share of failures, Porsche, after more than a decade, isn't getting out in front of this or candidly informing the Public. Many view this as a form of deception, leaving Forums like this to expose that the Emperor really does have No Clothes, despite the urges from the Marque faithful to Hush. You own a '97. If it implodes, I suspect you'll simply dispose of it. But, for others, they simply cannot take the hit... Happy Motoring!... Jim'99 |
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Whatever.... the S2000 was my other choice and I think just a bit more fun than Grandma's Camery, but like I said, I didn't do my homework. We are not talking a water pump or wheel bearing, we're talking $11,000+ to replace the motor..... I don't have that much to throw away and it's ridiculous to have to shell out that much cash for an obvious major design flaw no matter WHO the manufacturer is. Because it is a Porsche, it's not ok. Sorry for the rant, I tend to look at the worst case senerio. I'll get over it and hopefully enjoy the car for a few thousand uneventful miles..... at least the odds are in my favor that it will hold together rather than not. :confused: |
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See above... Happy Motoring!... Jim'99 |
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Here are some of the owner's threads that have me concerned >> http://forums.roadfly.com/forums/porsche/porsche_boxster/6138904-1.html |
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Thanks, I may be giving you a call. Do you have a good set of wrenches ? :confused: :D |
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Clearly, we disagree. You can call it whining if you want, but that simply isn't so, it's just calling it like it is. Sorry if that disturbs you or your choice. I have already decided to sell my Boxster, even though I've had no problems with it at all (though PO had an RMS replacement at 4k mi. - dry as a bone 24k mi. later). Frankly, the Car just really isn't that great. It has some good points, but it's also heavy, underpowered, poorly designed, potentially unreliable. I don't care about owning a Porsche, that's no badge of honor for me. I've already owned them and have owned many more prestigeous cars in my time. I've had the Boxster 2 years and half my friends don't even know I own it or have seen it. Interestingly, it's just not the kind of car I would want to hold on to. I don't envision selling my Lotus Esprit (owned 17 yrs.) or Datsun 240Z (owned 34 yrs.) in the foreseeable future, but the Boxster just isn't that kind of car to me. I was looking for a Miata when this one came along and was too good a deal to pass up. I can sell it today for more than I paid. Been there, done that, got the 'T' shirt. So many cars... so little time. I think I hear a new direction calling... Happy Motoring!... Jim'99 |
MNBoxster:
"My confidence level is greater in my Esprit (by a factor of 10) than the Boxster, despite Lotus reputation as being China Dolls. In fact, in 16 yrs. owning my Lotus, the only failures I ever had were directly related to pushing the car, and I drive that car HARD!" So Jim, what do you say to those naysayers in a Lotus forum that may be unhappy paying a Lotus premium for an unworthy China Doll? :rolleyes: Z. |
Those are good rationalizations and I applaud you for them.
Porsche still produces engines with faulty designs, charges a ton of money for the car, and refuses to fix known flaws for years on end. If you guys are fine with that, fine. No need to hide the issue from others however. |
MNBoxster:
"I have already decided to sell my Boxster,..." Jim, if that would also mean that we'd lose you at this forum, that'd be quite a loss indeed. Speaking for myself, I really do appreciate all the knowledge you've shared here so far. Z. |
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Glad you are putting your wallet where you mouth is. Again, I was talking disputing your specific statement about "value", and how it didn't apply to buying a Porsche. Again, you expect value in a Honda purchase, not a Porsche. Also, my choice is not disturbed, as I am absolutely loving the car. Good luck with the next in line. |
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Hi, My 22 y.o. Esprit has about the same power (2.2L 4 Cyl - 215HP), about the same weight (2780 lbs.), slightly shorter (165.4"), slightly wider (73.2") slightly lower (44.2"), 7200RPM Redline, . But, it will run rings around a Boxster in the straights (0-60 in 5.0sec. 165MPH Top Speed) or the twisties (1.12G), or the Brake area - 60-0 Braking Distance - 105'. It makes a huge difference when putting up with Foibles if the car really delivers. Porsche coulda made the Boxster that way, but they chose not to. It's a Boulevard, See and Be Seen, Cruiser, albeit admittedly nimble. The Lotus is in fact a pretty robust car, not nearly deserving of the reputation. much more reliable than was my Elan SE or Europa Twin Cam Special. In 44k mi. of Driving, almost never city, mostly Open Road or Track, the only failure I experienced was a melted #4 piston brought on by a Lean condition due to a failed Intake Gasket leak at 36k mi. and this even drove me home 186 miles on 3 cylinders, though it wouldn't go over 61MPH doing so. Sounds stupid, but I was at BIR (Brainerd International Raceway) and the car ran, even with the Piston failure. I knew exactly what happened and that I'd be rebuilding the engine (for $2k) anyway, so I figured I couldn't hurt it any worse, and every mile closer to home would mean a cheaper tow (Has to be a Flatbed), so I kept going, with a friend following, and it got me home. Still started the next morning, though it sounded like ********************. People who think the Esprit is a China Doll are uninformed non-owners. Peruse the Esprit Forums and you won't find catastrophic engine failures which result from design flaws. 99% of all engine catastrophies in the Esprit are from failed or improperly tensioned timing belts (read Owner ignorance or negligence), or from actually pushing the engine too hard over Redline. They are 1960's technology (Lotus 910 Engine powered the Jensen Healey) with Dellorto carbs and plugs which need to be changed every 5k mi., Oil every 3k mi., eats rear tires, Fuel Tanks can rust out (replace with Alloy units), but other than that, and the odd Lucas electrical gremlin (which I have had none of), they're pretty reliable. Parts are about 1/2 what Porsche charges and readily available. They don't rust. You could buy a reasonable example for $10k. And... James Bond never drove no Porsche... :) Happy Motoring!... Jim'99 |
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First and foremost. Silverstreak, I was not picking on you. You asked a completely legitimate question about engine failures. My rant has everything to do with the same players jumping on their soapboxes and scaring the **************** out of each other to the point that they they stop enjoying their perfectly good Boxsters.
I look at it this way. I'm a drag racer. When you drag race, you break ****************. Should I live in a state of perpetual apprehension because I might break something? Should I quit enjoying the sport of drag racing forever because I might twist an axle or bend a clutch fork? My answer is no. I recognize the risk and then enjoy the crap out of myself at the track. If I break the car, sometimes it gets very expensive, but that's the price of playing the game. I live on the Chesapeake Bay. In 2003, Hurricane Isabel came through and ate my house and nearly everything else I owned. If you live on the water, this can happen. Should I pack up and move to Idaho? For me, the answer is no. I can think of nothing I love more than watching the sun come up over the water, or the sailboat races on Wednesday evenings. If a storm comes through and wipes out the house again, it'll be a huge pain in the ass, but that's the price of living here and I wouldn't trade it for a safer locale. You shouldn't drive around in your Boxster in a perpetual state of fear just waiting for that oil spot to appear on the garage floor. You should drop the top as much as possible, throw on your coolest shades, crank your tunes and drive. The Boxster has the ability to melt away the stress of the day, or to give you the reason you need to drive to work in the first place. If you only use it as a weekend car, it reminds you of why you work so friggin' hard. If it breaks, fix it. There's a good chance that it won't. Some guys obsess over that fact that the RMS, engine, or whatever may fail and that Porsche is doing nothing to correct it. So might our hearts, lungs, and kidneys. Should we stop living now in case one of those organs screws up? Should we cower under the covers in our darkened bedrooms, furious at the medical community and waiting to die? You can if you want to. Me? I'm going to live. If my heart (or my Boxster) explodes I will be able to say that I enjoyed every minute of the time I had. Plan like you'll live forever. Live like you'll die tomorrow. |
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I like your philosophy, but that's all it is, philosophy. The lister posed a legitimate question, as you note. All I did was give a legitimate answer. It may not concern you if the Boxster explodes, if mine did I could easily absorb the loss. Others either cannot, or don't want to, and that's OK too. It's kinda tough having a frank discussion without being frank. I've owned 39 cars in my life. None of them perfect, some less perfect than others. Some with minor annoyances and some with major ones. IMHO, the Boxster belongs to the latter group regardless of how many times it may make the corners of your mouth curl up, that's all... Happy Motoring!... Jim'99 |
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Oooh... somebody didn't take their Happy Pills today... Happy Motoring!... Jim'99 |
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Well, maybe in spring its kinda friggin cold huh? |
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