I'll have to say - as a new owner (that did NOT do any homework on engine flaws), reading this thread at first made me feel sick.

BUT - my new car kicks my *$$ - and I'll accept the risk (not like I have a choice now!...).

And if you would like my opinion (no offense taken if you don't - cause my wife never does), it is the ONLY roadster I ever did - and ever will want - regardless of the issues.


I do have two questions for all of you though.... :

Does my Porsche warranty cover these failures?

Are these flaws found in the Cayman as well?

Thanks

- C5150

Hi,

OK Guys, we can Wordsmith all night, but the potential issues with the Boxster are real and well-documented. I don't need to have the RMS drain 9 Qts. of Oil, and create a HazMat cleanup of my Garage floor ($3200 for my Buddy w/ the '04 'S' - PCNA had to pay it), before I'll admit to those potential failures. You can cover your ears and scream LA-LA-LA-LA-LA all you want, but it won't eliminate this very real potential.

Where's the annoyance? The fact that there is a very real (more real than any other car I've owned) possibility that the next turn of the ignition key could trigger disaster. Only a defective ignition switch can assure this doesn't happen (who'd have thought?)... ;)

I would stand more easy were I bmusatti, because I would have the protective warranty blanket to keep me warm, but as a 2nd owner, I don't expect Porsche to raise a finger.

I've owned several Brit cars, and for the record, they don't leak, they just like to mark their territory... ;) There were times in my MGB, or TR3 or Healey, and the like, where I might not have been surprised if the car didn't react at all when I turned the key, but I was reasonably assured that it wouldn't self-destruct either, at least more so than the Boxster.

The car does have it's good points to be sure, and for many these outweigh any of the not so good things. But, others feel differently. I wonder if this may be one reason these cars hold their value so poorly...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

I do have two questions for all of you though.... :

Does my Porsche warranty cover these failures?

Yes, a Porshce factory warranty should have you covered.

Are these flaws found in the Cayman as well?

As far as we know, yes they do!

BTW-for the record, I love driving and looking at the Box.

Just wish it were more reliable and less costly to repair.

Now I didn't kill myself researching this but:

The 1998 Lotus Esprit's base price appears to have been $82,625. I just found a couple of examples for sale for $37,000 or thereabout. Its resale value appears to be roughly 45% of MSRP.

The 1998 Boxster appears to have had an MSRP of $40,745. Though KBB says its value is now $20,225, lets assume $18,500, a more realistic selling price for a nice '98. Let's see... that's...about... yup, 45% of MSRP.

I wonder how a more comparable 993 would have held up?

Yeah, sounds good. South East Ohio rocks !! Hwy 9 ! :cheers:

You know what? While this is an interesting analysis, it really doesn't matter, cause you're not gonna change Minnesota Man's viewpoint of the car, and he's not going to change ours. He's going to continue to post the issue about his friend's 04 engine failure as an example to prove his point, and we're gonna continue to point at Boxsters that have had no issues at all. Different philosophies at the end of the day. I am with you 100% on your viewpoint of this whoe discussion, and personally, I expected to pay a little more to play when I bought the Porsche. Again, if I wanted 100% reliability, I would've bought a Honda or Toyota. I'm not expecting "value" in any sense of the word. I use my car only on weekends for pleasure, as I live in NYC, and I pay over $500 per month just to park my car in a massive underground parking garage. At that rate, I could change a new engine every 2 years from the parking rent costs alone. The point is, if all this stuff scares you to the point of it not making you enjoy the car anymore, then sell it. MN has every reason to move on to something different. Me personally, what I also love about a Porsche as compared to a Lotus or Ferrari is that if you do break down, you can actually find a Porsche dealer within a reasonable distance of wherever you are because there is a very good dealer service network built up here. Not so with a Lotus or Ferrari. To each his own.

YMMV and all that good stuff. :p

Grizzly, your writing reflects enlightnment and depth. I agree 100% with your last few posts here.

Boxtaboy, agree 100% with you, too.

Without getting philosophical, it is fair to say that no design is literally perfect. All cars have their "faults", and the more exotic (expensive) they get, the "faultier" they seem to become. Except in rare occasions, sport cars are not bought as investments. They are a cost item, a toy. It all boils down to whether the joy from the toy is worth the costs of acquiring it and keeping it. The buying public seems to like the equation, hence the prices are where they are. It's not Porsche's fault that it can charge so much for its cars and their maintenance. It can, so it does. Wouldn't anyone?

What Rich and Jim seem to be proposing here is that there is some kind of a conspiracy by Porsche and the media to keep the masses ignorant about some ugly truth about their design. I find that hard to believe. Every person I talk to on the track is aware of the RMS and every possible thing that can go wrong with their cars, and some of these people have had and raced Porsches for the last 20 years AND have a brand spanking new 997 or 987 on order! Somebody must be buying these new and used Porsches and it'd be pretty arrogant to call them all ignorant, uninformed, or just poseurs, I think.

Now once in a while, a guy WILL stretch to buy their dream sports car like a used Porsche, and underestimate the total cost of ownership by a little or a lot. Happens all the time with everything else in life. It's not Porsche's responsibility to lay down the calculations for them, nor to teach them that to truly enjoy a toy they have to leave a very comfortable cushion in their $ cost estimates.

Z.

I am not suggesting any conspiracy on Porsche's part. I simply think they should rectify a design that is faulty and that they know is faulty.

How much is that to ask of a company for a engine that is in cars costing $50-125K? If I was buying a POS Kia for $12K I have no expectation I have purchased a 250K motor. In this car, I would like to feel like the motor would be the last thing to go.

Seriously guys, read what I have been writing. I am a huge fan of the Boxster and I have never said that it should have the reliability of a Toyota.

But I do think that having your engine grenade on you because the boys in Germany are too cheap or proud is asking a bit much of the Porshce "faithful."

I certainly don't think that there is a Porsche conspiracy - but it's definitely not out in the open for non-Porsche owners. The fact is that the RMS and the intermediate shaft designs are flawed and have been for some time. Period.

I guarantee that if I had checked out this site before buying my Boxster I would have either purchased new or gotten an extended warranty. Instead, I bought into the "Porsche engines are bullet proof" fallacy. So, within 28 days of ownership of a '99 with 12,240 miles I lost an engine while sitting at a stoplight. Sick to the stomach doesn't begin to describe how I felt when I found out how much it would cost to replace. Luckily for me I had a 90 day warranty and the dealer had to pick up the replacement costs.

I've been back and forth on this car. On most days I can't imagine not owning it or driving it. On other days (Engine failure, MAF, O2 Sensors, coolant problem, spoiler problem, broken center console, broken visor flappy thing, top problem) I just want to unload the damn thing.

I will say that if Porsche fixed just the RMS and intermediate shaft flaws for the 2008 versions - I'd be on the lot in a heartbeat picking out a new ride....

Well said Pete. Having an engine go is sickening. My neighbor is still leery of her car. She keeps asking me "was that normal?"

"I certainly don't think that there is a Porsche conspiracy - but it's definitely not out in the open for non-Porsche owners."

Common sense suggests that both cannot be true:

1. Either there has been a real and eggregious fault design in Porsche's engines that somehow the media (magazines, forums, publications, TV, radio, consumer advocacy groups, etc. WORLDWIDE) have conveniently "forgotten" about over the last 20 years, and kept it from the buying public, hence a consipracy, OR

2. The fault is perhaps not as big as purported by some -- both in frequency and severity, relative to what's commonly acceptable in the auto industry. Of course, personal closeness to a defect would indeed amplify the negative feelings about the event, and add extra motivation to vent the frustration on a public forum. ("It's not statistics if it happens to you.") But that's far from an objective measure of a product's quality as a whole on a global scale. For objectivity we must go to the market where informed buyers vote with their wallets. Hence the prices paid for Porsches.

Actually, there's a third option that I found not worth mentioning, as it borders on being delusional: That there are only a handful of knowledgable people aware of the full extent of the problem while the media and the rest of the buying public are simply stupid and brainwashed enough to just keep buying and driving defective Porsches.

So which one is it?

Z.

silverstreak, you'll be fine....I almost lost my thrill too and I bought a new 05 which I was told can blow up any second. Because of these reports for months I listened to every sound on edge, you got a great car, this board is a great source for information but a couple of members have really strong opinions, they may be right, maybe not....enjoy it.....and worry about an issue when it becomes an issue, not before then......

I have plenty of repair bills for the old vette....so far not a prob on the 05, 10K and counting....now someone will undoubtly reply just wait.....well just wait on any car....including the 5 or so recalls on the Nissan Murano

I am not a "Porsche Expert" by any means, but as I recall, they have problems with many of their engines

older air cooled 911's have the head studs issue, cooling fan issue, etc. I think only the 3.2l SC engines are considered "bulletproof"

the water cooled front engined cars have the rubber timing chain which if not meticulously maintained lets valves hit piston crowns, and the 968 also had the pinion gear problem.

now the rms & intermediate shaft issue with the water cooled flat 6's

nothing is perfect, for sure Porsche isn't. But hey, its the price of admission.

You play, you pay. I love my boxster, bought it knowing full well about the problems. I love the damn car, and the smile it puts on my mug everytime I drive it. Theres no way I would trade it for a S2000, or anything japanese.

Drive it like you stole it, baby!!

I HAVE always had my eye on an esprit though. But the 8 Cyl turbo version. That car is just ********************in. I would take one of those over ANY 911.

I agree the 996/7 and 986/7 are no S2000 (which ain't cheap anymore either) in reliability and every prospective buyer should know that this fine German car is going to require specialized labor and seriously marked up parts

BUT>>>>>

The engine issues are a different matter. Its not like its replacing a throttle body or a alternator. Its a BIG potential disaster that the company know about.
Can anyone name another fairly large company that knows that 1/3 of its engines can potentially go at any moment and its out-of-warranty owners are basically SCREWED? And the in warranty costs must be big too, replacing a GT3 engine is about $35K all because of a problem they are well aware of. Nope, I can't name another car maker who overlooks a major engine defect either.
At the end of the day its good to whine because believe it or not allot of buying decisions are made by people reading about our whining. And Porsche actively read the Porsche car forums like Rennlist. If not for the whining Porsche would thing it was all peaches and cream because they are making allot of money in a sluggish car market.

perfectlap:
"Can anyone name another fairly large company that knows that 1/3 of its engines can potentially go at any moment and its out-of-warranty owners are basically SCREWED? And the in warranty costs must be big too, replacing a GT3 engine is about $35K all because of a problem they are well aware of. "

I think you just answered your own question. Let's just focus on the waranty years. If those defects are so frequent and severe, Porsche would have hard time breaking even on each car it's selling purely because the waranty claims would exceed any profit margin they could impose on the market. And that, obviously, is not the case. The conclusion is that the frequency and the severity (thus the costs) of the defects must be SMALL enough to allow Porsche not only to make money on each car but to maintain the HIGHEST profit margins in the industry.

Z.

I'm on board with Z......

" Let's just focus on the waranty years"

That is EXACTLY what Porsche IS focusing on.

After that, well, gee, that is too bad! Just give me 12-15G for a new engine please.

I will go back to my Chevy V8 analogy.

You can run those bad boys for over 200K easy if you simply keep the oil clean.

Why would that be so much to ask of a Porsche motor?

These Germans are smart folks. Charge much, keep expectations low.

Porsche is doing what is good for Porsche, but at the same time they are losing customers whether they be new or repeat. With the increasing popularity of forums such as this one, the flaws are coming to the surface and being broadcasted in a public forum whether they be widespread issues or not. This can and will be perceived by some as a company that could give a rats rear about its customers. As was mentioned below, this is not an alternator or head gasket, etc... this is a CATASTROPHIC ENGINE FAILURE that seems to be traced to a design flaw.

Imagine if the buying public knew before hand, that the car they were about to buy had the potential to implode regardless of how they treated or serviced it? What if they knew that unless under warranty, Porsche would tell them to go pound sand and deal with the $12k-$15k repair bill on their own despite it being a design flaw?

BTW - Does anyone have the last 3 years of Porsche's profit, net revenue and number of vehicles sold? I would be curious to see how fast their products are moving off the lot?

Disclaimer: I don't know if this is a design flaw or not, but it sure sounds like it...

" Let's just focus on the waranty years"

That is EXACTLY what Porsche IS focusing on.
After that, well, gee, that is too bad! Just give me 12-15G for a new engine please.
I will go back to my Chevy V8 analogy.
You can run those bad boys for over 200K easy if you simply keep the oil clean.
Why would that be so much to ask of a Porsche motor?
These Germans are smart folks. Charge much, keep expectations low.


You missed my point. If the cars were really that defective Porsche couldn't afford to offer 4yr bumper-to-bumper waranties. It'd simply go bankrupt. The reality of HIGHEST profit margins is suggesting quite the opposite. Unless you're inferring that the "smart" Germans specifically designed the Porsches to start breaking down in hordes right after their waranty expires -- just for the fun of it. So smart AND sinister indeed. Dr. Evil material. :)

Z.

that's how I read it.....and still on board with Z on this one.....if it is that much of a crap shoot with the engine.....I would figure I would see A LOT more posts of this occurence where as right now we see warning posts and friends of friends...and I know some have gone bad on this board but not enough.....

so if it was that much of a crap shoot, then Porsche would be broke on replacing motors under warranty..........

so unless there is a program this sucker to go at anytime after 60K miles button....not sure how they could be that unstable

In keeping with your point, if these defects were few and far between why doesn't Porsche step up and help their customers out with an extended warranty or something of the sort? If these are truly a drop in the bucket than this would be a small price to pay for happy customers? How many people on this forum have this in the back of their mind and will affect their next purchase? How many people will tell their friends about what they read on this forum?

Sammy:
"In keeping with your point, if these defects were few and far between why doesn't Porsche step up and help their customers out with an extended warranty or something of the sort? If these are truly a drop in the bucket than this would be a small price to pay for happy customers? How many people on this forum have this in the back of their mind and will affect their next purchase? How many people will tell their friends about what they read on this forum?"

Why not offer an extended (or longer) warranty, you ask.
I could think of a few reasons off the top of my head:
1. For the same reason Toyota, Lexus, BMW, MB, Ferrari, etc do NOT.
2. Because it doesn't have to, and yet all the above brands could only dream of achieving it's profit margins.
3. How much longer? Would 20yr warranty make you finally happy and remove the anxiety in the back of your mind?
4. Porsche is not in the business of psycho-therapy.

How many people? I don't know. Do you know? I think Porsche may have a better idea than either one of us here.

FYI, I did read this and other forums before I made my purchase. And happily so.

Z.

Does Toyota, Lexus, BMW, MB, Ferrari have issues with catastrophic engine failure due to a design flaw?

You are absolutely right in that they don't have to and it is obvious that they are taking this path. It's the risk that they are willing to take. A bunch of scared and unhappy customers vs. a couple extra bucks of profit (since you are inferring that this is a few and far between problem).

They are providing the right product to a specific market that allows them to maintain their profit margins (granted I don't even know if this is true or not so if you have some stats that would be awesome!). If Porsche decided one day to produce as many vehicles as one of the bigger companies than they would not enjoy the same profitability. My company makes its money by serving a non-commodity market and we enjoy much higher profit margins than our competitors, but our competitors make more profit because they are bigger and serve a commodity market where there sales revenue is a whole lot bigger than ours.

I don't know if the extended warranty is the way to go, but how many other manufacturers are increasing their powertrain warranties? I'm not losing sleep by any means, but I am keeping track of this for the next time I buy a vehicle. My dreams of a Carrera are becoming much cloudier...

My question about the number of members was rhetorical, but last I checked there were over 6000 members of this forum.

I have one thing to say, there is no way in hell that its a 1 out of 4 ratio that has failure. Thats a quarter of the cars produced. Come on, please beoytches.........

On a quiet night you can here Porsches exploding all across America.

Yeah.. I'm kinda with you on that. I mean, really. Don't you think we'd be in class-action territory here? Some guys caused a *huge* friggin' stink over the battery life in i-pods.. It was like the shot heard 'round the world. Then there was some guy making a stink online about easily scratched i-pod nano screens. These things cost less than $500 and people were in an uproar.

Now 20-25% of the people paying $50,000US for a car are having it die on them and not a peep from the media? No lawsuits? Seriously?

My engine blew-up today just sitting in Winter Storage! :mad:




:D :D :D

I hear too much Zaino can do that to a car!!

We will never really know how many engines tank, leak etc. That data is just never going to see the light of day.

Personally, I think the Boxster is a fine car that has some very flawed engineering.

I can tell you there are plenty of engines out there that are both strong performers and quite durable.

Time for Porsche to step up to the plate. Wait, they don't have to, they have strong profits.

Hmmm, interesting.

Hi,

Z12358, Super66, OHBoxster, berj, bmussatti →↓

I guess that I am just a monkey (or gorilla) in pants!!

Wow! You have pants?!?!

I love Gorillas. They are so expressive.

Strong too!

Another pic...
 

of Brucelee and MNBoxster. :cool:

Come now..

Believe me.. you seem to have me confused with those 'Porsche can do no wrong' folks. I've got no interest. As I've mentioned before.. I like this car.. not the brand. Moreover, I could care less what the "reputation" of the car is.. doesn't make me feel small to hear people talking it down. If, indeed, there are such design flaws in the car with such high rates of failure as you're describing then I'll be first in line to point the fingers at Porsche (and put my money where my mouth is).

I'd just like to know where you're getting these numbers. I simply find it interesting that there's a distinct *lack* of reporting of *any* kind about such widespread failure rates. (aside from forums such as this)

I HAD a gorilla but it blew up.

That's some funny $hit... :cheers:

berj:
"I'd just like to know where you're getting these numbers. I simply find it interesting that there's a distinct *lack* of reporting of *any* kind about such widespread failure rates. (aside from forums such as this)"

It's a conspiracy I tell you. Porsche and the whole world (except for us gullible buyers) are in on it. Porsche has bought them all with our very own hard earned money that they stole from us. Our little forum is one of the rare lucky ones to have Rich and Jim let us in on the real deal. :rolleyes:

Z.

Sammy:
"Does Toyota, Lexus, BMW, MB, Ferrari have issues with catastrophic engine failure due to a design flaw?"

I feel like we're going in circles here. Neither does Porsche! I thought we already concluded that if Porsche did have these big issues it would go bankrupt by paying warranty claims. 4 years is a long time to be exposed to a 1 in 4 chance of a $30k+ warranty claim on every car they sell.

A bunch of scared and unhappy customers vs. a couple extra bucks of profit (since you are inferring that this is a few and far between problem).

Or you could just be exagerating. Porsche may not be concerned simply because there may not be as many scared people as you are led to believe, and not because they are profit hungry capitalist monsters with no concern about the longevity of their brand. Believe me, they know much better than either of us what it takes to keep selling their cars.

I'm not losing sleep by any means, but I am keeping track of this for the next time I buy a vehicle. My dreams of a Carrera are becoming much cloudier...

You shouldn't buy a Carrera anyway. The Box is a much better design. :)

Z.

Hi,

You're probbably right, it's all just one big overreaction...

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?t=262302&highlight=rms

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1980762&postid=20792732

http://www.pca.org/tech/tech_qa_question.asp?id={581DA672-0984-4130-AA08-47A83948709E}

http://boxster.wikia.com/wiki/Engine_&_Transmission

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?t=179949



http://experts.about.com/q/Porsche-795/RMS.htm





http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?f=137&h=&t=211023

http://www.porscheclub.com/mboard/forums/printer-friendly.asp?tid=954&mid=

http://www.automotiveforums.com/t360874-unhappy_jaguar_owner.html

http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=770713#post770713

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127804&page=2

http://www.whatcar.co.uk/car-review-readers.aspx?RT=%09%09%09705

http://www.grmotorsports.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=15408

http://www.germanautoforums.com/m_5018/mpage_1/tm.htm#7952

http://www.porkers.co.uk/topic.asp?t=156325&f=48&h=0

http://www.funcarsonline.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Number=64832&page=

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

Actually, the engine design issues around the Int shaft failures and the RMS are well documented and commented upon in Panorama, which as you know, is hardly anti-Porsche. This information is presented matter of factly, much in the same manner as when they comment on the 944 engine losing timing belts and along with them, valves, cams etc.


Moreover, if you have been a Porsche used car dealer like I have, or if you spend a lot of time at a dealer where the service bays are accessable (which I have) you would be astonished by how many of the cars there have to whole engine/trans unit out of the car. I don't think this is done to detail the engine compartment but, hey you never know.

I have no idea if 25% is the right number on these engines. However, there appears to be no dispute that there are several design flaws in the engine alone.

My service tech readily admits to this and told me point blank he is not allowed to tell me how many of these engines actually fail.

This is all just data. No one said the sky is falling, just that it might!

BTW- it is significant that my dealer can obtain a replacement engine from Porsche in 24 hours. Why do you suppose that these are so readily available?