Supercharger - Imagine Auto

[oliverg]

Hi guys. I've been a lurker here for some time. I wanted to get your most learned opinions on the ImagineAuto supercharger kit.

Has anyone here installed the kit? I'm in Australia and dont want to go to all the trouble of having a unit shipped out to me only to find its not worth the effort.

Here are some of the questions (below) I fired off to Imagine - if anyone else can answer them or give me some further ideas / information that's pertinent I'd be most appreciative Also I may have missed some questions out to ask so any advice here too would be great.

Thanks very much

------------------------------------

Can you ship your supercharger kit to Australia?

Do you have anyone in Australia (Melbourne) that has installed one of these kits?

Do you need to do the GIAC flash upgrade or can the supercharger be installed without it?

Do you need to rebuild the engine before even thinking of deploying the supercharger?

How much for shipping? How much for the unit?

You mentioned in the article that this was developed for the 2.5 but later on I see “suitable for 2.7/3.2” – could you clarify a little for me?

[ohioboxster]

1. Im sure they can ship the kit anywhere.
2. Dont know if they have sold one in Australia
3. Yes, you need to reprogram the cars computer
4. How many miles, engine condition would be a factor.
5. Dont know how much money probably around $7,000.00 US dont know about shipping.

Thats my thoughts.

[oliverg]

thank you Ohioboxster you are a gentleman and a scholar

Have you finished installing your kit yet? I'm dying to know what your opinion is of it.

Kind regards

[ohioboxster]

The thread above is actually a play by play of the install.

[oliverg]

From what I can tell the retail price of the Imagine Auto kit is US$ 7k?

but what you have below doesn't add up to anywhere near 7k

How did you get the kit so cheap? Are Imagine making an absolute fortune? What would buying their kit for 7k benefit me over doing what you have done?

Kind regards

------

Supercharger kit..........$ 1398.00 includes shipping
Brass nut.....................$ free 00 guy at home depot gave it to me
Metric fastners.............$ 38.00 Bolt depot (studs,nuts,washers,etc)
Loctite flange sealant..$ 25.00 Online (couldnt find it locally)
Vacuum hose...............$ 4.00 Auto Zone
Tee-fitting....................$ 1.99 Auto Zone
water hose 1"..............$ 11.00 Auto Zone
Dayco belt....................$ 36.00 Advanced auto
Digi box (fuel box)........$ 500.00 TPC
Injector........................$ 100.00 TPC
Fuel line.......................$ 50.00 TPC
Install manual..............$ 00.00 TPC (gave me manual free)
Shipping 4 ^.................$ 20.00 Ups
Air filter.........................$ 22.00 Pelican
Fuel filter......................$ 38.00 Peliican
2" Silicon hose..............$ 25.00 E-bay 2 total S&H in price
Supercharger oil............$ 14.00 Pontiac dealer (2 bottles)


Misc money:

Mobil 1..........................$ 57.90 Auto Zone
Oil Filter........................$ 13.00 Sunset
Ignition switchs............$ 36.00 E-bay (2 total)(no labor $)
Clutch line.....................$ 63.00 Porsche dealer (no labor $)
Brake fluid.................... $ 5.00 Auto Zone ( need to double check this price)

[ohioboxster]

I found a used kit on E-bay that is like new. Let me clarify, I dont know how much Imagine autos kit cost. That was just a guess.

[oliverg]

In case anyone is interested I heard back from Imagine Auto. Response below. As you can see, they were prompt and friendly. I'll be weighing up the advantages / costs of buying a 3.2 from an S and dropping it straight in vs the SC. Is there anything else that needs to be changed during a 3.2 upgrade? EG I assume the tiptronic is common between the earlier 2.5s and the 3.2s?

Thanks alot to Vin as well for his kind help!! Front page of our main newspaper in Australia reads "Discovery: Major Celebrity to drive Porsche Boxster in up and coming film XXX3"

Regards

-----
FROM IMAGINE AUTO:

Oliver,

Yes we can ship to you.

Not as of yet. Lots of inquires but no actual sales as of yet to your area.
Yes, the ECU has to be sent to us to be flashed.
No, the system is designed to run on a stock motor.
Shipping would be several hundred dollars for air freight.
Sorry, the kit available is the 2.5. It can be shipped any time.

Hope this helps. Thanks for the questions and let me know what concerns/questions you may have. The kit is a wonderful addition to any Boxster and delivers very favorable results. I know you would be pleased with it.

Best,

Stephen

[ohioboxster]

Did they give you a kit price?

[oliverg]

The pricing I've found is $6995.

I'm seriously thinking of importing a bunch of these into Australia as I think there's a market for them

I'm torn though because I've been talking to Turbowerx:

http://turbowerx.com/page1/page3/page3.html?gclid=CIumy4i3-4YCFSI7GAodCkULIA

Their twin turbo kit looks like its the duck's nuts - it's the same price and takes 1/2 the time to install.

Hmm supercharger .. or twin turbocharger .. hmm supercharger .. or twin turbocharger

Its like being torn between one's current wife and one's future wife

[Gary Gaukler]

I am not affiliated with either of the companies, and I am not advocating one system over the other, but here are my two cents:

The iA supercharger (non-intercooled) is supposed to increase rwhp from 150 to 230. That is an increase of 53% (not 38% as claimed on iA's web site). That's a very large increase. The following estimate of supercharged hp can be used (e.g., see Corky Bell's book):

HP_super = HP_na * PR * DR * VER * DPE.

PR is the pressure ratio, DR is the air density ratio (boosted/na), VER is the ratio of volumetric efficiciencies, and DPE is the drive power efficiency (100% if belt is transmitting power perfectly).

For illustration purposes let's use DR=0.85 (ballpark for a non-intercooled system), VER=1.1 (better VE after supercharger install), DPE=1 (perfect power transmission). You can plug in other values and see what you get, but the values I used are a good starting point, IMHO.

Then, you can find that in order to go from 150 to 230 hp, you need a PR of 1.64 (someone please check my math). That corresponds to roughly 9.5 psi of boost (again, please check). Why is this important? The Boxster is a fairly high compression ratio engine. That means you want to have low boost levels. 9.5psi to me seems too high to safely use on a Boxster engine with stock internals. YMMV.

Based on what turbowerx say on their website, their kit provides 6psi of boost, intercooled. They only claim an hp gain of 60 hp (to 210 hp). Plug in their numbers into my equation above, and you will find that this makes a lot more sense (PR=1.4, DR=0.9 due to intercooler, VE=1.1, DPE=1):

HP_super = 150 * 1.4 * 0.9 * 1.1 *1 = 209.
(The last term is approximative, as there is no belt efficiency in a turbo system)

Of course, this is just physics, so real world results may vary

Bottom line: I don't see how iA can get 80 hp out of a non-intercooled supercharger kit at safe boost levels. Judging from the numbers on paper, turbowerx seems to offer more realistic power gains. Ask for dyno charts including A/F ratio and boost levels before buying.

Gary

P.S. Useful books:
Corky Bell, Maximum Boost
Corky Bell, Supercharged!
A. Graham Bell, Forced Induction Performance Tuning

[oliverg]

Can you / Should you decompress the engine before doing either procedure?

BTW thank you Gary for your write up - that was pretty incredible!

[Gary Gaukler]

Originally Posted by oliverg

Can you / Should you decompress the engine before doing either procedure?

Theoretically, you can lower the compression ratio by installing different pistons. However, I am not aware of anyone who makes / sells these for the Boxster. So, practically, the answer is, no...

Low boost levels with proper chip mapping should be fine without lowering the compression. I personally would start to get concerned at anything beyond 6psi or so, but that's not a hard-and-fast rule.

If you are seriously interested in forced induction, read Corky Bell's books - it's a small investment, and you'll be a much more educated buyer!

BTW, please do not think that I advocate the turbowerx kit over the iA one. An intercooled twin-turbo certainly sounds better to me on paper, but a lot depends on the kit maker's ability to tune the system, and I have no first hand experience with either of these kits.

Best,
Gary

[oliverg]

I asked Marc at Turbowerx to comment on your blurb, Gary. (Out of pure interest, not to question you). Marc and I have been corresponding as I am now seriously considering selling the Turbowerx kits in Australia. So far he has been the only guy to get back to me with friendly and helpful advise (although it IS still the weekend over there for people in the US ) This was his response:

"Interesting comments by Gary. He is spot on. The numbers presented by IA (and TPC, but they pulled their s/c system a week ago) are misleading at best. It is obvious to us they are playing a game by showing an artificially low baseline, and then an optimistically high result. We have noted this for a long, long time. There are numerous ways to massage dyno charts to give the result you want. We don't play that game. We give exact, honest numbers. In some respects it's tough(er) to compete against people/companies that do this, but we have chosen not to stoop to that to sell the product. We firmly believe a product should stand on it's merits. Not hype, or certainly not outright lies. We are confident the truth will prevail - people like Gary will be the one's to help educate the market."


-Marc

[Dfer]

Hey Oliverg
I was at a PCV meeting in Melbourne on the weekend and one of the guys was trying to sell me the Supercharger off his car. It was originally installed by Peter Fitzgerald .
If your are interested in following up the kit ( Which is currently installed on his 2001 S ) , PM me and I will give him your contact detailsand I will pass it on to him. Obviosly you could drive the car to see how you liked it

Cheers

Dennis

[oliverg]

Originally Posted by Dfer

Hey Oliverg
I was at a PCV meeting in Melbourne on the weekend and one of the guys was trying to sell me the Supercharger off his car. It was originally installed by Peter Fitzgerald .
If your are interested in following up the kit ( Which is currently installed on his 2001 S ) , PM me and I will give him your contact detailsand I will pass it on to him. Obviosly you could drive the car to see how you liked it

Cheers

Dennis

Ah thank you very much Dennis. I don't think the S kits work with the standard Boxster? Do you know how much he wanted?

Kindest regards

[Dfer]

Originally Posted by oliverg

Ah thank you very much Dennis. I don't think the S kits work with the standard Boxster? Do you know how much he wanted?

Kindest regards

Don't know much technically. Fitzgerald would be able to answer that.
We didn't get around to discussing price. I am arranging to have a drive to check it out but I suspect I will go the 3.4/3.6 route when the time comes.

Cheers

Dennis

[oliverg]

I spoke at length to Peter Fitzgeral regarding the SC he has for sale.

He imported it into Australia (it is the TPC one) and the first car it was installed in was a 2.5 - the engine blew within 2 months and Peter says he was the first person in Australia to rebuild a 2.5 engine (which he did for the client).

He then installed it in another client's vehicle and changed the injectors back to stock and changed the DME back to stock but did something funky with the 7th injector and restricted the boost level to 5.5 - apparently the initial 2-3 seconds after planting your foot the boost on the stock TPC with upgraded DME is around 9 (which is way too much for an engine of this compression). The second engine blew too.

Last car he put it in was a tiptronic - and after a few months, the transmission died. 14k to install a new tranny.

So now this evil supercharger sits ready waiting for the next victim!!!!! Peter wouldn't sell it to me as I have a tip. He assures me that he's ironed out the bugs (!!!!!) now. (I would think so, after 3 cars!)

He then tried to sell me the 3.4l upgrade. He has a 'brand new' 3.4 engine that was deployed in a guy who did track in it. Apparently there were sump issues with Boxsters with sticky tyres and oil starvation so the 3.4l blew and he rebuilt it. (So when he says "brand new" its 'sort of brand new') He wanted 30k ($AUD) which is about 22K $US for fitting and supply - but would be willing to give me a 1 year warranty on the engine itself.

Personally, I think 30k is way too high - I know I can get a 3.4l with all the bits for around 10k-12k $AUD and I can't see it costing 18-20k to install it! Am I wrong? Does anyone know how much (average) a 3.4l non egas 996 engine goes for?

I'll keep everyone posted anyway. Take care all!

[ohioboxster]

I would avoid this kit for sure because the things he is telling you make no sense. First is boost level I need to clear up your unit of measure are we talking foot pounds? (ft. Lbs.) If so the factory SC from TPC come with a pulley that creates 4.5 Ft. Lbs of boost. If he detuned his kit to 5.5 I have a feeling someone installed a different size pulley on the SC unit. If this is the case, motors are blowing for just cause. Compressed air is hot and will cause detonation. Detonation over time even extremely short time equals a blown motor no if ands or buts about it. I have installed SC kits in the past and have never seen boost shoot up in the first two seconds as he described. Now, if the blow off valve is bad I can understand a build up of pressure. The ladder makes no sense to me. Next the IA kit is the one where you change the factory injectors not the TPC kit. Finally, how in the world could you control an additional injector if you disconnect it from the factory ECU? If it was wired direct the motor would flood with gasoline. The whole thing just doesn't add up. The best part is he readily admits to blowing up three cars and still thinks you would buy the kit. Honest to a fault or just plain stupid?

[rennsport986]

oliverg

i'm a 2.5L owner from Sydney, Australia.

I've just started toying with the idea of a 3.4L conversion or turbo kit (preferably 3.4L conversion but depends on cost). I have spoken to the Porsche specialist who does all the mechanical work on my car, and he's advised that the labour cost should only be around AUD$6k-$7K for the 3.4L swap.

My problem is sourcing an engine and ECU, and I also have no idea what sort of price would be reasonable for these items in Australia. I would have guessed that AUD$10K-$15K would be realistic.

I met a chap in the Porsche Club NSW who has done a 3.4L swap into what was a 2.5L Boxster, and it made around 180kw at the wheels, although it was running a touch lean at the time. This was prior to me considering on embarking on this project, so I'm kicking myself for not asking him more questions at the time.

The Turbowerx kit you mentioned does appeal to me, and it is the cheapest turbo kit I have seen for the Boxster so far. I'd be interested to know if anyone has any feedback as to how effective/reliable these kits are.

Keep me posted on how you get on, it sounds like your plans/research are a lot more advanced than mine.

Cheers.

[oliverg]

Ohio - yes you are right - detonation was one of the reasons one of the cars blew. Also, my lay person translation of what he told me may be a bit skewed by my sheer lack of understanding. He did tell me the TPC injectors that were OE were special ones though - I remember that distinctly because I thought "ah just like the IA one" He struck me as completely honest but .. I honestly would say that even though he assures me that the problems are fixed now, I wouldn't be buying that particular kit!!

Rennsport - I thought before I started researching that it would be about 12-15k $AUD for a 3.4 swap - when he asked for 30k I almost died! He started off by saying "well usually you'd pay 40k" and I think I had an accident involving a new set of underwear. Your friend got 180kw to the wheels? That's about right from what I know, although with the new 100RON fuel we have now (Optimax Extreme) something funky could probably be done with the DME to increases that further - do you know if your friend was using the 2.5's cats/headers/muffler? The engine this guy was selling had custom cats for a 3.4.

If we go ahead with importing the Turbowerx twin turbos, I can have the install done here for you in Melbourne and would be prepared to give you a substantial discount (ie cost price!!) to be a guinea pig!

It was my thought to start doing 3.4 drops for a fixed price, then taking the 2.5s and rebuilding them and fitting the twin turbo kits and selling them as a package. Got to do some return on investment figures and see if its worthwhile.

If I can help you in any way I'd be only too happy to oblige

As Jim says. "Happy Motoring"