LN 3.2 to 3.6

[The Radium King]

hello - has anyone doe the LN Engineering 3.2 to 3.6 bore increase without any other revisions to the engine? that is, Jake Raby also does valves, cams, ecu, oil plugs, etc., as part of his conversion - is this required, or can you just increase the bore and let the ecu compensate as per the LN website? i've heard headers are a real benefit, but are any other intake mods required (injectors, etc.)? i realise that any mods done in conjunction with the bore increase will increase hp/torque, but are any NECESSARY to accompany the bore increase? or, are do any of them provide an ok 'hp:$' ratio? i ask as a Raby stage i engine is over $15k, but the LN bore is only $4k. i'm sure that that additional work Jake does increases hp and longevity, but i'm trying to get a feel for where the law of diminishing returns kicks in (probably when i first bought the car ...).

thanks.

[Jake Raby]

FYI- The work LN does for 4K is machine work and plating for their new liners as well as a set of JE forged pistons. This is ONE PROCESS of the engine enhancement, it is not a complete engine or does not include any of the other required components.

My price is for a 100% completely reconstructed engine that uses a culmination of my technology with the LN upgrades and expert assembly followed by both engine and chassis dyno evaluations. It also includes FREE removal and reinstallation of the engine into your Porsche.

To disassemble the engine to ONLY do the LN upgrade to 3.6 liters the assembly labor is the same as what we'd charge for the complete engine, as EVERY component MUST be removed. If you attempted to only do this one enhancement you'd still spend 3K in required parts and the same 5K on assembly, maybe even more if done by a less than competent (slow) M96 engine assembler.

In short, the enhancement to the LN Nickies cylinders is one aspect of my engine, there are 22 more that you haven't considered.. Thats why the prices are north of 15K. We leave no stone unturned, we assume nothing, we risk nothing.

If an engine sees a bore change without coefficient optimization of the related internal components the result is an inefficient combination that has a narrow powerband, is hard to tune, runs hotter and gets lousy MPG. My most recent stage ! 3.6 based from a 3.2 has attained upward of 32 MPG even with spirited driving! Thats 7 MPG more than the same car with the base 3.2 made when it produced 40 less HP in stock form. This insane fuel economy and power is a direct illustration of the efficiency of my engine design.

that engine is also running with a STOCK ECU flash, has STOCK 3.2 exhaust and a STOCK 3.2 intake system. It has all the benefits of a bone stock engine, but hauls ass, sounds great and has amazed its driver enough to sell his BMW M3.. Thats a Stage I engine, its changes and alterations are required to optimize the bore enhancement.

[Cartel]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

FYI- The work LN does for 4K is machine work and plating for their new liners as well as a set of JE forged pistons. This is ONE PROCESS of the engine enhancement, it is not a complete engine or does not include any of the other required components.

My price is for a 100% completely reconstructed engine that uses a culmination of my technology with the LN upgrades and expert assembly followed by both engine and chassis dyno evaluations. It also includes FREE removal and reinstallation of the engine into your Porsche.

To disassemble the engine to ONLY do the LN upgrade to 3.6 liters the assembly labor is the same as what we'd charge for the complete engine, as EVERY component MUST be removed. If you attempted to only do this one enhancement you'd still spend 3K in required parts and the same 5K on assembly, maybe even more if done by a less than competent (slow) M96 engine assembler.

In short, the enhancement to the LN Nickies cylinders is one aspect of my engine, there are 22 more that you haven't considered.. Thats why the prices are north of 15K. We leave no stone unturned, we assume nothing, we risk nothing.

If an engine sees a bore change without coefficient optimization of the related internal components the result is an inefficient combination that has a narrow powerband, is hard to tune, runs hotter and gets lousy MPG. My most recent stage ! 3.6 based from a 3.2 has attained upward of 32 MPG even with spirited driving! Thats 7 MPG more than the same car with the base 3.2 made when it produced 40 less HP in stock form. This insane fuel economy and power is a direct illustration of the efficiency of my engine design.

that engine is also running with a STOCK ECU flash, has STOCK 3.2 exhaust and a STOCK 3.2 intake system. It has all the benefits of a bone stock engine, but hauls ass, sounds great and has amazed its driver enough to sell his BMW M3.. Thats a Stage I engine, its changes and alterations are required to optimize the bore enhancement.

Which would be..

[The Radium King]

thanks jake. my $4k to $15k comparison wasn't fair, as one price doesn't include labour and one (yours) does. as well, i fully realise that your engines also have reliabilty modications (ims, low temp tstat, billet chain tensioner, etc.) that increase overall cost.

good to hear that no fuel delivery/air intake revisions are required.

am i correct in assuming that the drawbacks to a 'bore only' change that you list (heat, poor mpg, narrow powerband) are all related to valve/cam operation? if so, then can i consider a valve job and cam grind necessary mods to accompany a bore change?

thanks jake, and i think we are all loooking forward to seeing your 3.2L mods up on your webpage (as well as your UDP!). TRK.

[Jake Raby]

Guys,

Every time I am ready to post infinite details about what differentiates our engines from others and exactly what we do another reason pops up that I shouldn't.. There are lots of people that jumped on the "bandwagon" with M96 engine repair and production after we did. These people simply cannot figure out how we are being effective, when they can't even build a stock engine without it failing.

The biggest difference is they are creating an engine thats designed to sell, not really to work.. They have whittled prices and processes to the point of being bare minimum and they basically lack the experience or resources to do anything more.

These people read my site and these forums just as much as the individual enthusiasts do, trying to see just what makes the engine tick. Due to this I have to be reserved with some information or even some problem areas or processes to keep them from becoming more educated and using that information against me.. I guess they'll all buy a copy of my book and maybe then they'll have a chance!!

Cartel, If you want an idea of the 22 areas that I was referencing, just send me an email and we'll begin some dialogue.

Lets go over The Radium King's last post:

thanks jake. my $4k to $15k comparison wasn't fair, as one price doesn't include labour and one (yours) does.

It also doesn't include cylinder head rebuilding, crankshaft evaluations, or even a gasket set for reassembly. The simplest of parts for this engine add up extremely quickly and your observation covered none of them.. My price covers 100% of them and installation, and both engine and chassis dyno evaluations, and **i** personally test drive the car for 3-500 miles before its shipped to you.. We do the first oil service, all break in related services and when the car returns you have no action required and no break n period. Drive it as hard as you want right off the delivery truck.

Consider these things when you consider initial cost and understand that some of them are absolutely priceless..

as well, i fully realise that your engines also have reliabilty modications (ims, low temp tstat, billet chain tensioner, etc.) that increase overall cost.

Yes, we apply ALL of the enhancements currently available to every engine, the list of options is short.

good to hear that no fuel delivery/air intake revisions are required.

I specifically designed the Stage 1 performance engine to be this way.. Above this stage all of that changes.

am i correct in assuming that the drawbacks to a 'bore only' change that you list (heat, poor mpg, narrow powerband) are all related to valve/cam operation? if so, then can i consider a valve job and cam grind necessary mods to accompany a bore change?

No, cylinder head alterations are also required and its not so much changing the camshafts that matters as much as simply altering the timing of existing cams in some situations and base engines.

thanks jake, and i think we are all loooking forward to seeing your 3.2L mods up on your webpage (as well as your UDP!).

The site will probably stay as is for a while.. we are staying swamped with the site being as vague as it is currently and seriously don't want to educate our competitors or future competitors.. They have to pay the price of blood, sweat and dollars just like we have to get this far, else its not really life.

[ltusler]

Gentlemen,

Please just do what Jake says and keep quiet. Send the car, pay the money, and be happy. You will not be dissapointed. I speak from experience. End of story.

I run a 1999 996 with a Flat 6 Innovations massaged 3.8 conversion. It will pass anything short of a cup car or tube frame 911 be it a 997S, 996, Boxter S, Cayman S, Cayman Turbo, 951, 930 been there done that at BIR on the main straight.

I'll be at Road America on the 11th and 12th, stop on by and check it out, car #996.

Lon

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by ltusler

Gentlemen,

Please just do what Jake says and keep quiet. Send the car, pay the money, and be happy. You will not be dissapointed. I speak from experience. End of story.

I run a 1999 996 with a Flat 6 Innovations massaged 3.8 conversion. It will pass anything short of a cup car or tube frame 911 be it a 997S, 996, Boxter S, Cayman S, Cayman Turbo, 951, 930 been there done that at BIR on the main straight.

I'll be at Road America on the 11th and 12th, stop on by and check it out, car #996.

Lon

Damn, thanks Lon..
And it comes from a man that wrote the check for one :-)

[70Sixter]

I've posted this before, BUT...

Jake's rep goes back forever in the Type IV VW/914 world. Before the M96 appeared Jake was making VeeDubs run like lions.

Trust him. First guy to say M96 could be rebuilt when Porsche would not.

'Nuf sed.

[ekam]

I don't discredit him. It's just that there are not that many people can afford to sink that kind of money into their car.

Seems like when people get hit with IMS, they either find a used engine or sell the car for scrap instead of sending it to Jake.

[Jake Raby]

I don't discredit him.

I didn't think that he did. I am a bit accustomed to doubt so it doesn't bother me.. When your primary focus is developing an engine platform with so many inherent issues doubt is just part of the the execution of my day..

It's just that there are not that many people can afford to sink that kind of money into their car.

Not true. Those who appreciate what a Porsche is and those who have extensive Porsche backgrounds understand what we have created and see the value that it offers. If the kind of following didn't exist for what we create, my business would have sank instead of growing during this economic downturn.

Seems like when people get hit with IMS, they either find a used engine or sell the car for scrap instead of sending it to Jake.

Thats not who knocks on our door. The wiser of the group applies the IMSR and avoids the entire experience related to that failure. People have 4 choices when they have an engine failure of any mode:

1- Buy a used engine
2- Buy a new crate engine from Porsche
3-Buy a re-man engine from a producer of high volumes, mostly comprised of used parts with no upgrades
4- Buy my FSI upgraded engine.

Of those mine is the only one with all the updates applied in STANDARD form and is the only of those that can be created for an application specific arrangement. The mildest engine that I produce makes 30HP more than it's OE counterpart in stock, non upgraded form. Pay for 30 real HP and see what that costs, pay for 35-50 more lb/ft of torque and see how much your wallets lightens... The byproduct of added efficiency and better parts has become performance, we make more power even if we aren't trying to!

If 1/2 of 1% of all Boxster Owners in this country buys an engine from me, thats still more volume than we'd ever be able to meet.. Our goal isn't volume, its development and creating resource materials and classroom experiences to help the DIY and INDY shop efforts worldwide. My business is a development company that just happens to also produce low volumes of high quality engines while supporting others in their quest of "understanding the M96 engine" (which just happens to be the title of my book thats being written as we speak)

And remember, a whole lot of our purchasers are waiting in the wings to buy their dream Porsche with a scattered engine dirt cheap on ebay and etc.. These people buy the car and spend DOUBLE to TRIPLE what they pay for it on my engine and some upgrades to create a really sweet and fast DE or street car. To these people your loss is their gain and you can bet they'll have more fun with your car, than you ever did.. I have had cars shipped to me for engines that the purchaser never even saw until our work was done and delivered to their doorstep...

In the old days the vast majority of those who could afford to buy a Porsche could also afford to maintain and repair it.. Today thats not the case in all too many instances.
"Porsche" and "Expense" both have 7 letters and share more in common than just that....