Engine question for Jake and Charles

[blue2000s]

Are modern Porsches owned by different customers than Porsche had in the 70s and 80s? Weren't 911s luxury items then too, albeit more pure ones. Weren't (and aren't) many of the owners of earlier 911s using them for simple commuting and pleasure driving?

Weren't the 928s, that were built for 15+ years mostly cruisers and a larger percentage automatics?

Hasn't Porsche had lower price point models in the 912-914-924-944-968 that might be owned by customers who might not take the same level of care in their car than the more expensive models?

It's easy to look at the Boxster as something new and unique in Porsche's lineup, but it's really not from a product standpoint. It just happens to use alot more 911 content then the previous "other" Porsches.

I argue that the way modern Porsches are treated are probably no different from that of the production cars through most of Porsche's history.

The big difference instead being the internet shining a light on the issues that current cars are having. As Jake points out, Porsches of various generations and engine configurations have had engine problems. I'm sure if the internet had existed in the mid-70s everyone on a Porsche board would have freaked out about warped heads and stripped blocks or worn valve seals in the mid-80s.

The more things change, the more they stay the same. It's just easier for information (and the related potential for sensationalism) to travel along the information superhighway.

[Steve Tinker]

err - yes and maybe... Boxster owners are different from early 911 owners.

I would guess that Porsche ownership today is more affordable than what it was in the 1960's and 1970's - which brings back the point that Boxsters (and to a lesser extent 924/944/968) owners are not as savvy as early 911 buyers, because Porsche are aiming the Boxster product at a different market.
Early cars had no power steering, no cooling worth mentioning, all manual gears, no brake booster etc etc. Could you get your wife into one - at more money than a Mercedese or a Caddi?? Would she buy one??
In the US, how many weeks pay would it have cost in 1965 to buy a 911S, E or T? Even the 912 was not a "cheap" option either. I think you would have had to have been a pretty commited enthusiast to buy any of them!
A lot more committed than todays Boxster buyer I would venture.

Though I fully agree about the superhighway......

[blue2000s]

Originally Posted by Steve Tinker

err - yes and maybe... Boxster owners are different from early 911 owners.

I would guess that Porsche ownership today is more affordable than what it was in the 1960's and 1970's - which brings back the point that Boxsters (and to a lesser extent 924/944/968) owners are not as savvy as early 911 buyers, because Porsche are aiming the Boxster product at a different market.
Early cars had no power steering, no cooling worth mentioning, all manual gears, no brake booster etc etc. Could you get your wife into one - at more money than a Mercedese or a Caddi?? Would she buy one??
In the US, how many weeks pay would it have cost in 1965 to buy a 911S, E or T? Even the 912 was not a "cheap" option either. I think you would have had to have been a pretty commited enthusiast to buy any of them!
A lot more committed than todays Boxster buyer I would venture.

Though I fully agree about the superhighway......

Cars today are a higher % of the US average annual salary than they ever have been. If anything, they're more precious than ever. The big difference is financing allowing more people to own expensive cars.

Porsches were more rudimentary in the past than they are today (which I actually prefer the old cars), but so were all sports cars. Have you ever been in a mid-70s Corvette? The 924 was a luxury boat by comparison. I still contend that the market segment that bought Porsches in the past are still the same that buy them today. You can't look just at 911s, someone who bought a Boxster today is probably more likely to have bought a 944 than a 911 back in the day.

[geoff]

Thanks all for the thoughtful and insightful comments, especially Jake. I specifically did not ask about the four cylinder 924/944/968 or V-8 928, since Porsche clearly intended those for a different market than the 911. The 924 wasn't even designed to be a Porsche and came with a VW engine. No new ground for Porsche in those engines compared to the radical change from air cooled flat-6 to water cooled (even though some flat-6 race engines had water cooled heads).

A most interesting observation that in the past that nobody would discard a vintage 911 because of a motor that self-destructed (and some did). From what I've read, proper engine work on an old air cooled flat 6 is not as inexpensive as on the M96 ones, and top end work comes much sooner on the old air cooled ones.

Clearly it's not just accountants calling the shots to blame, because the Cayenne came after the original Boxster to drive Porsche's profits higher, and there are no Cayenne engine horror stories like with our Boxsters. Maybe Porsche recognized SUV drivers weren't the same sort of enthusiasts as the ones who traditionally drove 911s. And the Cayennes come with the same ridiculously high oil change intervals with Mobil 1 0w40 as the Boxster and Carrera (lower OCI for DFI engines).

The market dynamics for the Boxster are certainly different than in the past, with Boxsters and Carreras bought as both serious sports cars and fashion statements (I think half the new Carreras I see around here are driven by women). Last week I went to my local Porsche dealer to see if they could figure out a front end squeak. The lead mechanic and I went for an extended joy ride through the canyons trying to identify the source of the sound, and he commented he would love to get a Boxster to go with his vintage canyon racer 911s, but his wife wouldn't let him have any more projects - he loved the balance and driving dynamics of the Boxster.

I think it will be really interesting to hear from Jake when he has more data built up how many engine failures are with enthusiasts, and how many are with just regular car drivers. Also, how many happily followed Porsche's maintenance specs and how many cut the oil change interval in half or more

[al83s]

Hello.
I personally think that introducing an entry-level models such as 924, 944 or 986 was a great idea.
The fact that a person cannot afford a 911 doesn’t make him less of an enthusiast. Being able to buy a Boxster at todays low prices means that you can afford it a lot sooner in your life, so you can spend more time behind the wheel, rather than just looking at the poster on the wall.
The fact that the parts for it are cheaper and more readily available means that I can spend more time working on it myself and further appreciating the engineering and build quality that was put into these cars. I’m sure that owning a brand new 911 and its new car smell is great and hopefully some day I will experience it, but I doubt that it will give me much more smiles than my 7 years old Boxster that was purchased for a price of a used civic.
Just my 2 cents.

[Jake Raby]

The only problem is even when Porsches are old enough to be affordable to purchase they are not affordable to repair.

Thats why we end up with cars that are "totaled" when their engines fail.

Affording to buy a Porsche is one thing, affording to correctly maintain and repair it is another.

[Brucelee]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

The only problem is even when Porsches are old enough to be affordable to purchase they are not affordable to repair.

Thats why we end up with cars that are "totaled" when their engines fail.

Affording to buy a Porsche is one thing, affording to correctly maintain and repair it is another.

Good point. I love the 944 and 968 models. Ditto the 929. However, to buy one and KEEP IN RUNNING is more than I want to take on.

[mikefocke]

They are going to a different demographic that early Porsches.

Those very early cars either rusted out or stayed in the family. They weren't looked at as "gee, I can drive a Porsche for $8k kinda cars". And the people that kept them had the money to maintain them or parked them in a barn. And there was no Internet. The Porsche clubs were small and news traveled slowly.

There were few dealers and even fewer mechanics. And the dealers were dealing with one type of car/engine, not the air cooled, VW-engined, SUV, 8-cyl, turbo, smog-treated, etc. they have to know about today.

And the factory was focused, not stretched to provide a car for every niche.

Plus the economy was very different and, if you couldn't afford the rebuild now, you aspired to next year.

So get people stretching to buy a 4th owner first few years of production Boxster and you are going to have reports of problems. Both from design and age and use and lack of proper maintenance. Does the guy who paid $8k take it to the local shade tree or to a mechanic who really knows the cars but charges more for the knowledge, parts, tool expense, etc.

The emphasis was on engineering the car, not financial engineering.

Think what could have been done on reliability updates if the money hadn't been funding some big-shots grand scheme to inflate his sense of self worth by taking over a mega corporation.

Yes it was a different world.

[sd_boxster]

Maybe it's just me, but it seems a little unfair to dump all of this on the driver. I've been finding ways to ruin motors since I was 16, but this is the first car I've owned where the dealer by and large just junks the engine if something significant fails. I've spun bearings, snapped an oil pump shaft, warped more than a couple of heads, exploded flywheels, and inflicted damage of varying degrees of complexity and expense on my cars over the years. For those cars that were under warranty, this was always stuff the dealer just dealt with. Needs new bearings? You're gonna wait a while, but we'll get to it.

As Jake has explained in the past, the Porsche response (at least for a long time) has been to replace the motor rather than getting busy with the internals. When the diagnosis from your dealer includes a $12K item in the "Parts" column, and your car is worth $10K, what conclusion is your average Joe supposed to come to?

We've all had that internal "Crap, do I sell it now while it's running, or do I keep it because it's finally running now" debate (even with a car you LOVE) after dumping money in for a rebuilt transmission or some other pricey repair. Granted, for me, that was always a $500 repair on a car worth $2000 - but it sure seems applicable to $15,000 repairs on a $10,000 car...

[Jake Raby]

Its a modern world... Until I bought a Boxster the newest thing I owned was a '76 model... Older cars were and everything else was made to last much longer than in today's modern world.

The design of engines has been focused on production and the car being just good enough.

Most everything in today's world is just like a Bic lighter... Use it and throw it away. The Zippo doesn't have the merit it used to have.

It'll be interesting to see just how many Boxsters around in 20-30 years.

[tnoice]

Got to thinking about it. Even if the factory motor went bad, what would stop a person from doing an ev conversion rather than spending 15-20,000 for a new motor.? You would be helping the environment while also still driving a pretty cool car. RUF finished an electric 911 that I guess is amazing to say the least. Just curious what others thought.

Ruf 911

[JTP]

I love driving my Boxster. It has good power, sexy body and very comfortable interior.

However, I owned three 914s before and I loved driving those cars even though they were underpowered and not too comfortable. Somehow the driving experience was more satisfying and the "feel" of the car is something I couldn't really put my finger on. Plus I could thrash those cars and they just kept on going. I still own and drive cars from the '70s and they give a different level of driving satisfaction modern cars cannot.

[landrovered]

Originally Posted by blue2000s

Are modern Porsches owned by different customers than Porsche had in the 70s and 80s? Weren't 911s luxury items then too, albeit more pure ones. Weren't (and aren't) many of the owners of earlier 911s using them for simple commuting and pleasure driving?

Weren't the 928s, that were built for 15+ years mostly cruisers and a larger percentage automatics?

Hasn't Porsche had lower price point models in the 912-914-924-944-968 that might be owned by customers who might not take the same level of care in their car than the more expensive models?

It's easy to look at the Boxster as something new and unique in Porsche's lineup, but it's really not from a product standpoint. It just happens to use alot more 911 content then the previous "other" Porsches.

I argue that the way modern Porsches are treated are probably no different from that of the production cars through most of Porsche's history.

The big difference instead being the internet shining a light on the issues that current cars are having. As Jake points out, Porsches of various generations and engine configurations have had engine problems. I'm sure if the internet had existed in the mid-70s everyone on a Porsche board would have freaked out about warped heads and stripped blocks or worn valve seals in the mid-80s.

The more things change, the more they stay the same. It's just easier for information (and the related potential for sensationalism) to travel along the information superhighway.

Golf clap. Nicely stated.