RMS Question

[Ed Hess]

I've included some names of people for anyone in SE PA. I have some
RMS stuff to ask about. When I took my 2003 2.7 in to be inspected a
couple of weeks ago, Paul at Performance Automotive told me it was starting to
seep a little oil near the RMS. I had taken it to Brandywine and had the RMS
replaced at 44K and then again to Rosen where it was replaced at 47K while it was still under warranty. It now has 49.5K miles and is out of the Porsche warranty period. I took it back to Rosen yesterday and they looked at and
saw the seep but said Porsche does not approve fixing it unless it is
dripping and there is noticeable oil being spashed behind it. Bill
at Rosen told me 99 out of 100 boxsters would have as much seepage as
mine and 911s as well. He said if they fixed it again it might not be
as tight as it is now, but agreed to take another look at it in a couple
of months to see if it has gotten any worse. I'm not too worried about
it as I bought a major mech. warranty from warranty direct that covers
seals, but I am wondering if I should escalate this to 1-800-PORSCHE and
just say this is unacceptable. Any comments or feedback is appreciated.

Thanks.

Ed

[z12358]

I would have escalated even after the SECOND rms issue was discovered only 3k miles after the first one. What happened to you is unacceptable. And I wouldn't even bother making claims on the aftermarket warranty. You are still experiencing the problem that started and was dealth with while still under Porsche warranty. Warranty fixes should also have a warranty on them, otherwise they're not fixes at all -- your case in point.
Z.

[Brucelee]

Originally Posted by z12358

I would have escalated even after the SECOND rms issue was discovered only 3k miles after the first one. What happened to you is unacceptable. And I wouldn't even bother making claims on the aftermarket warranty. You are still experiencing the problem that started and was dealth with while still under Porsche warranty. Warranty fixes should also have a warranty on them, otherwise they're not fixes at all -- your case in point.
Z.

Dead on! What he said!

[porsche986spyder]

I have to agree with what these guys are saying, if some one replaced your RMS with a new one, they should have some type of garuntee on the work that was done.

On another note, my machanic that replaced mine said that the Porsche uses a CASTING process that is done my a machine that leaves the SURFACE with a ROUGH finish. That is the real cause of the problem. If you have ever seen a casted alluminum block up close, you can see what I am talking about. This is why the seal DOES NOT work properly. In many cases my mechanic would recomend RE-SURFACING, the area where the seals are made to create a BETTER seal between the parts. Porsche is well aware of this because most of the newer models like the 987 from 2005 and up use a newer process that does not leave a rough surface which so far has cured the problem. That's just my 2 cents.

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by porsche986spyder

I have to agree with what these guys are saying, if some one replaced your RMS with a new one, they should have some type of garuntee on the work that was done.

On another note, my machanic that replaced mine said that the Porsche uses a CASTING process that is done my a machine that leaves the SURFACE with a ROUGH finish. That is the real cause of the problem. If you have ever seen a casted alluminum block up close, you can see what I am talking about. This is why the seal DOES NOT work properly. In many cases my mechanic would recomend RE-SURFACING, the area where the seals are made to create a BETTER seal between the parts. Porsche is well aware of this because most of the newer models like the 987 from 2005 and up use a newer process that does not leave a rough surface which so far has cured the problem. That's just my 2 cents.

Hi,

Only partly true. The newer models do not have a different block. Porsche, to save money on Production Costs, adopted a Casting technique invented by Audi which eliminated the need for post-cast machining, there is no traditional center-bore machining at all. This results in a % of Blocks where the opening for the Crank is not properly centered. This is one cause of RMS - the Seal can never be properly seated to begin with.

The other involves the way the Crank is cradled. This design allows the Crank to meander slightly off it's centerline, and this is what abrades the Seal leading to premature failure.

All variants of the M96 engine suffer this and to a high extent. At least 25% from anecdotal sources and if you believe Scott Slausen at PCA Tech Committe, he states that all M96 engines will have this problem. ..

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[porsche986spyder]

Originally Posted by MNBoxster

Hi,

Only partly true. The newer models do not have a different block. Porsche, to save money on Production Costs, adopted a Casting technique invented by Audi which eliminated the need for post cast maching, there is no traditional center-bore machining at all. This results in a % of Blocks where the opening for the Crank is not properly centered. This is one cause of RMS - the Seal can never be properly seated to begin with.

The other involves the way the Crank is cradled. This design allows the Crank to meander slightly off it's centerline, and this is what abrades the Seal leading to premature failure.

All variants of the M96 engine suffer this and to a high extent. At least 25% from anecdotal sources and if you believe Scott Slausen at PCA Tech Committe, he states that all M96 engines will have this problem. ..

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

Thanks for making more sense out of what I was trying to say. So is it true that the newer models have fixed this problem? I heard that it is no longer an issue with the 987 models.

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by porsche986spyder

Thanks for making more sense out of what I was trying to say. So is it true that the newer models have fixed this problem? I heard that it is no longer an issue with the 987 models.

Hi,

Nope - all 987's are susceptible. There is some talk that it's less frequent, but I don't believe it. The Seal is on it's 3rd or 4th Gen, and this has staved it off until later mileages are racked up it seems, but I think it's too early to say that the 987 won't experience this problem at the same rate as the 986.

They're all variants of the same basic engine design - M96/20 (2.5L), M96/21, 24 (3.2L), M96/22,23 (2.7L), M96/25 (2.7L 987), M96/26 (3.2L 987)...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[JackG]

Originally Posted by MNBoxster

Hi,

Nope - all 987's are susceptible. There is some talk that it's less frequent, but I don't believe it. The Seal is on it's 3rd or 4th Gen, and this has staved it off until later mileages are racked up it seems, but I think it's too early to say that the 987 won't experience this problem at the same rate as the 986.

They're all varaiants of the same basic engine design - M96/20 (2.5L), M96/21, 24 (3.2L), M96/22,23 (2.7L), M96/25 (2.7L 987), M96/26 (3.2L 987)...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

Has anyone ever cracked open the early and later variants to see if there have been any changes made to the casting?

It's not out of the realm of possibility that the crank support bosses, seal mating area, etc.. have had running changes made to help prevent or eliminate the problem. They would still be classified as M96's, that's why they call them variants.

[Brucelee]

I have to support what Jim says about the 987. My local service guy has been replacing them since day 1.

The new seal has been borrowed from the Cayenne as I understand it.

What's up with that?

:dance:

[Perfectlap]

yeah I don't buy the 987 less prone to RMS failures either...
seems illogical that it would just go away or would be drastically cut without
addressing the problem in some significant way, which of course has never been even alluded to let alone undertaken.

Interesting to see who would pay for a 3rd RMS seal if the 2nd failed after only a few thousand miles...doesn't sound like a part (seal) failure, or human error either.
Yet guess who has to pay up buddy!!?? Us!!!!
While Porsche dudes sip their Erdinger on the yacht...

[Ed Hess]

Thanks for all the feedback. I also posted this on ppbb and got some advice to ask to meet with the Porsche regional rep. Not sure how I can set that up, but seems like good advice.

I have to tell you what Don Rosen, SE PA dealer, said about work done during the warranty period - "it is only guranteed until the warranty expires". Work done outside of the warranty is guaranteed for 2 years and unlimited mileage. This is my third porsche (60 356B Normal, 86 Carrara, 2003 986 2.7) and may be my last depending how this works out.

What I heard about work done during the warranty period is completely unacceptable. You may want to check with your dealers on that.

[Brucelee]

Originally Posted by Ed Hess

Thanks for all the feedback. I also posted this on ppbb and got some advice to ask to meet with the Porsche regional rep. Not sure how I can set that up, but seems like good advice.

I have to tell you what Don Rosen, SE PA dealer, said about work done during the warranty period - "it is only guranteed until the warranty expires". Work done outside of the warranty is guaranteed for 2 years and unlimited mileage. This is my third porsche (60 356B Normal, 86 Carrara, 2003 986 2.7) and may be my last depending how this works out.

What I heard about work done during the warranty period is completely unacceptable. You may want to check with your dealers on that.

I would find that unacceptable also.

What a bunch of bullcrap.

You know, given the price of these cars and the margins, it is really pitiful that they try to pull this crap.

I wish I was a lawyer sometimes.

Did I just say that????????

[z12358]

Originally Posted by Ed Hess

I have to tell you what Don Rosen, SE PA dealer, said about work done during the warranty period - "it is only guranteed until the warranty expires".

I'd laugh at his face if he told me something like that. So if you brought your car in for something a month before warranty expiration, and they didn't really fix it but just patched it up to get you through your warranty period, then when the thing falls apart again, they're off the hook? This better be a joke.

Regardless of who pays for it (in or out of warranty) ANY repair work must come with some warranty of its own, to make sure that the repair was done correctly, or done at all.

Z.