Poll: Will Gas Hit $5/Gal by 4th of July?

[Brucelee]

Originally Posted by tonycarreon

not true - that number comes from ALL the taxes they pay : income, payroll, taxes they collect from the consumer (state, federal gas tax, etc.). the real number is closer to 20% (it fluctuates year to year with 2009 being almost 0%, 2010 being 18%)...

No, you are incorrect. That number would state and federal corporate income tax. It certainly does not include gas tax collections. Those go straight to the taxing authority after retail sale.

Check your facts out dude.

[tonycarreon]

Originally Posted by Brucelee

No, you are incorrect. That number would state and federal corporate income tax. It certainly does not include gas tax collections. Those go straight to the taxing authority after retail sale.

Check your facts out dude.

yes they go straight to the taxing authority, collected by exxon owned retail outlets. or are you saying that the money somehow magically goes from a consumer's bank account to the state's coffers without ever passing through the hands of exxon?

i never said that exxon paid those monies from their own pockets. just like they don't pay the sales taxes they collect from their own pockets. they merely collect and distribute to the taxing authority.

i don't know how you get a 41% tax rate on $107b in gross profit with $21b in taxes paid without including non-income taxes as "taxes paid." my math skills are not the greatest, but that comes out to 19.6%

we are essentially agreeing on the same thing. as much as i align myself as a democrat, and as much as i want "evil corporations" to pay their fair share, i do not vilify exxon, chevron, shell, or any other "big oil" company. they make money - that is their purpose. i am all for it. as long as the market will bear it, then they can make it. it sucks as the person paying $4.13/gallon, but that's the point of a free-market (even a pseudo-free market that we currently have.) i also don't buy the "exxon doesn't pay income taxes" or the "they make too much profit" arguments - both are false. they pay income taxes (2009 was effectively $0 because they overpaid in 2008, simple explanation.)

"Sales-based taxes and all other taxes and duties increased in 2011 reflecting higher prices." -- Form 10-Q, 3/31/2011

"The Corporation reports sales, excise and value-added taxes on sales transactions on a gross basis in the Consolidated Statement of Income (included in both revenues and costs)." -- Form 10-K, 2010

as an aside, please do not refer to me as "dude," we are not familiar enough with each other and it just feels like you are talking down to me.

[Brucelee]

I am saying from an accounting point of view, the line item called incomes taxes does NOT include pass through taxes like sales tax collected on the gas.

It DOES include Federal and State Corporate income taxes. Taxes of other kinds show up in other places in the income statement


In 2010, Exxon paid 21.561B in income taxes on 52.959 in pre-tax profits.

Make sense?

[Frank M]

Originally Posted by Brucelee

I am saying from an accounting point of view, the line item called incomes taxes does NOT include pass through taxes like sales tax collected on the gas.

It DOES include Federal and State Corporate income taxes. Taxes of other kinds show up in other places in the income statement


In 2010, Exxon paid 21.561B in income taxes on 52.959 in pre-tax profits.

Make sense?

they also pay 7.5 % payroll taxes, as well as the employee pays 7.5%
then give dividend payments of $1.88 for 5 billion outstanding shares and the recipients of the dividends pay federal and state taxes on it.

lets not talk about retirements, insurance and other benefits paid to employees too.
yes they make much denirio and pay much out too. its a win win for everyone.

here is the other scenario
what if they had to pay more taxes, where would it come from? yup the consumer and who wins, the one receiving the taxes.
they need to show a profit in order to get investors, or otherwise just shut the company down.
then i guess the public would be even more angry because now the oil supply is lessened and the price goes even higher.
a lose lose situation

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by Frank M

what if they had to pay more taxes, where would it come from? yup the consumer and who wins, the one receiving the taxes.

That's assuming the consumer will continue buying the same amount of gas if the integrateds simply pass the new taxes directly onto the motorist. This is false.
There is a price point where the consumer simply buys less of their of product.

And of course the downstream costs of those higher gas prices show up in other consumer goods. The motorist can not buy the same amount of gas while paying more for the usual quantity of beef, eggs, bread. Partciularly now that consumers do not have a dozen revolving credit card accounts to soak up the deficit in their pay checks. Those credit lines have been slashed drastically. No cash no credit = motorist stays home. The Oil companies will no doubt rack up their biggest profits when crude oil prices hit a new high but it will cost them later. But of course this is limited to the U.S. market. With explosive growth in Asia and commodity rich states in South America they'll have no problem selling their product in other markets. And since this is not Venezuela where private oil interest are nationalized most likely any new oil production here will simply end up in one of the two million gas tanks that China is putting onto the road EACH MONTH.
We have all the coal in the world, although that is a an econlogical disaster in the works, in the short term it will hurt the consumer less than surging oil prices if we can get cars that use less or no oil on the road. the eco considerations are secondary to the practical implications of long term $5 gas. Those who mocked the technology of electric vehicles and plug in hybrids are going to watch those investors of those technologies laugh all the way to the billionaires' bank.

[Brucelee]

"Those who mocked the technology of electric vehicles and plug in hybrids are going to watch those investors of those technologies laugh all the way to the billionaires' bank."

Put your money where your mouth is.

[Perfectlap]

well the cars will be expensive at first. How much did you pay for your first laptop?
I paid $4,500 and that wasn't even the high end of the IBM line at the time. Today you can get a 10X's more powerful laptop at Costco for $400. If no one buys in the begining because new tech is expensive then how will the manufacturers ever get back their R&D and evetually make $40K electric vehicles that will cost $25K? Just wait until gas is raising the price of everything and those electric vehicles will be on the top of the list instead of SUVs.
Also, that's not the only way to put your money where your mouth is. There is now a gloabl x litihium ETF (LIT) that is up $16 to $22 in one year. With the nuclear disaster in Japan the push toward non-nuclear alternative to oil will only ramp up.
Tech needed to produce electric and hybrid vehicles will be in huge demand. The Chinese are already threatening to block the sale of our electric vehicles in their markets if we don't "share" in these technologies. Those electric car guys are going to have the last laugh. It's such a no brainer when you consider how short the average commutte is for an American motorist. we can easily meet those mileage requirements in the short term.
Back in the 1930's after the stock market crash a famous investor bought every stock that was selling for $1 in a panicked market. He made a lot of money when investors realized the value. If you bought one share of every company involved in creating electric vehicles, plug-in hybrids and the battery tech needed to make them run and simply watched the movement of those stocks over the long run you'd have a front row center view of a game change that is now in the works.

[mikefocke]

thinking of replacing my wife's car. And gas prices do factor in but, driving so little, it really is a surprisingly trivial amount compared to insurance, depreciation, etc. And gas $ are something you can do something about buying a hybrid or a car that uses regular or you can buy something bigger and more powerful. You have a choice.

We are highly sensitive to oil prices because we see the meter run when we pump the gas. Almost no other commodity do we buy where that is true. Others we buy by the month or by the fill but not by the penny. How many of us have an appliance which displays $ spent on electricity as it runs? A faucet which displays our cost per second waiting for the water to warm up? Might change our sensitivities or habits if we did.

Supply and demand. And speculation always occurs in a volatile market.

[tonycarreon]

Originally Posted by mikefocke

thinking of replacing my wife's car. And gas prices do factor in but, driving so little, it really is a surprisingly trivial amount compared to insurance, depreciation, etc. And gas $ are something you can do something about buying a hybrid or a car that uses regular or you can buy something bigger and more powerful. You have a choice.

We are highly sensitive to oil prices because we see the meter run when we pump the gas. Almost no other commodity do we buy where that is true. Others we buy by the month or by the fill but not by the penny. How many of us have an appliance which displays $ spent on electricity as it runs? A faucet which displays our cost per second waiting for the water to warm up? Might change our sensitivities or habits if we did.

Supply and demand. And speculation always occurs in a volatile market.

gas prices are also one of the few commodities that affect every other purchase. your hypothetical toaster costs more because the fuel used to bring it to the store or having it shipped. the bread that goes in the toaster will cost more, the eletricity dor the toaster will cost more, etc...

[Brucelee]

Of course, Bernanke is printing money as fast as he can.

Impact on commodities?

You bet.