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Sorry PKP I didn't had time to research wether or not it would fit the 3.6 :/
Winter.K, It's stereolithography, they basically melt nylon powder with a laser, layer by layer, you have a better precision and it's much stronger than the hot ABS wire printer that you can buy for 300$. About sharing the file, the thing is, if I give you the file, I must give it to anyone, and therefor I become useless. Right now I don't have enough money to print the new version, if you want to try it, we can do something, I PM you. |
Hey Ben, I totally understand. Your design, keep it safe!
As for the process, I ask because I wonder about the durability of the 3D printing. I'm an engineer myself and we use Viper SLA machines for prototyping designs. They can be very high precision but the material (usually translucent) always yellows and becomes brittle within months. You can probably imagine what I'm getting at... Additive ABS might last longer if its strong enough. I'm no expert though, does your shop have other options? |
Boxster Intake Proto
Hi Ben I have been watching and I am interested. Mine is a 03S. E mail me details to try one. Leebherron@netscape.net :rolleyes:http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1448368648.jpg
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Winter.K,
Ben006 is utilizing SLS (selective laser sintering) of nylon powder which results in a very durable thermoplastic part rather than SLA (most typically is a UV laser cured photopolymer liquid) which results in brittle non-thermally stable part. In my opinion, SLS nylon is an ideal material/technology for prototyping and/or short production runs of this type of part. FDM ABS would be difficult to build without support structure (extensive post build processing) and would be weak and not thermally stable in an under hood environment |
SLS !
that's the right name ! That's what it is, nylon powder melted by a laser, sorry for that error and thank you for correcting :) Thanks gdotcvg ! Ben |
Been a while since an update, hows it coming along?
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Sorry, I was over in France for vacation and didn't had time to do anything :/ and I still don't have enough money ...
So, I decided that it was just a waste of time for you because I won't be able to test it ... IF SOMEONE WANTS TO TEST IT SERIOUSLY, I'LL GIVE HIM A LINK SO HE CAN BUY IT AT COST PRICE. Just PM me. This is the last version, with the wedge and improved stiffness (1mm thicker + ribs) and better vacuum pick ups. The only thing is that you will need to prep it yourself, it's not hard. For now that's the best I can do, deliver a half tested product. Ben |
I'm seriously impressed by your CATIA skills. That's certainly not an easy program to use, and you seem to have modeled your part flawlessly. Way to go.
I'll have access to a FDM machine soon. We have a makerbot at work but just got a bigger/better machine in this week (cost only $3000 so don't expect miracles). |
Thank you :)
I like Solidworks better but only have access to Catia now. everything takes more time with Catia ! I had never heard of the markerbot, but it looks like it does quite good, but it's FDM. I don't know if it's tough enough to endure the stress, even with the new design. Ben |
There is a member here who is all into engine modifications and also 3D printing. I bet he is missing these cool threads (not a (very)active member). Contact member epapp, sure he'd be willing to give it a go, dunno.
Epapp got sensors/telemetry stuff also so you might get some data out of him, one day, who knows. Worth a try Cool work Ben (I'm a fan) |
Ahah, thank you, I appreciate your support ! :)
I'll try to contact them! Even if someone doesn't have anything to collect data, you can still give it a try. I think I had enough data to see how it does without the wedge to be confident that it will perform even better with it. Ben. |
Hi guys!
I'm done with the shifters... I can go back on this project! So... the next version is "ready", I just want to check some dimensions again, to make sure, and I will have it printed so I can test the new shape. Then if it is successful, which I have almost no doubt about, I'll make it available for everyone. I thought about having it molded (aluminium or nylon66 like the stock plenum) like Nine8six advised me, but that would mean doing a production and I don't have the time or the money to do so, that would also make the part a lot more expensive for no reason other than the fact that people might be more comfortable with something made from a material they know well :/ Tell me how you feel about it! For those still worried about the printed part melting, just remember that the original intake tube is 1mm thick ABS plastic (melting point 200°F lower than nylon), it's exposed to the same temperature, and it doesn't melt at all. The only difference is that the plenum is under a greater pressure differential, hence the webbing on the new version to stiffen it. Ben. |
Mmmmh
Tuesday I'll go see a foundry, I might be able to make them out of aluminum without having to do a big /expensive production! We'll see! |
Is there that much of an advantage using the 83 throttle vs the 76?
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I can't tell, I haven't try.
But the 83mm being at least 300$, it defeats the purpose of a "cheap" upgrade :/ A 911 76mm TB only costs 50 to 60$ used! On the 2.7 the 83mm is totally overkill, and even for the 3.2 I don't think it's worth it. |
So... did you guys know the IPD manifold was patented...
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Yes.
Pedro, FVD, Champion, and more have also made a similar product. I haven't stole their idea, neither did I reused their design. (If I did reuse a design, it is more of the original design than theirs. But what looks more like a tube than a tube ?) And since I'm aiming at a totally different kind of people, I'm not ripping them off of any of their potential customer. The IPD is a superb part, with "air bearings", a CFD designed shape, and that is 100% plug and play. For those who want to be the fastest and the best product, at any price. Mine is a simple design, only available through this forum, plastic or aluminum we don't know yet. That will require the use of a custom intake tube to fit (even if it's not really hard to do, it's not included) made for those who can't afford a 1000$ part like this, but still want to have a little fun modifying their cars. I don't think IPD has any reason to worry about me! Ben. |
What you said is totally debatable and the reason why patent lawyers exist...
Once you get into selling parts and affecting companies bottom lines, you open up a whole big ugly can of worms. |
Well if IPD tells me to stop, of course I will!
I do that mostly for fun, nothing worth getting in trouble for. That would be counterproductive! But if they haven't bother big(ger) companies, I'm not too worried. There is very little probability that they haven't seen this thread yet! |
Ben,
I wouldn't worry too much about comments concerning patentability or infringement as of yet. I would stay away from cast aluminum, since that is the same materials of construction used by another supplier and may be an integral part of a patent. The patent holder bears the burden of proof to show that the defendant infringed the patent. The plaintiff must prove infringement by a preponderance of the evidence. This standard means that the greater weight of the evidence must show that the patent is infringed. If you have concerns or want to take this item from a DIY project and make it a marketable product, go see an attorney familiar with this area of the law. I am not an attorney, but I am interested in your DIY project and hope to purchase one soon. Best of luck. |
As I said, I do that only as a hobby and because I have enough free time right now. Nothing worth getting in trouble for!
And if anything happens, I can always go back to the original straight tube shape that worked great and that has nothing to do with IPD patent. (the only reason I used a wedge on the new version is to stiffen the 3D printed part. It's not needed for the aluminum part). I went to the foundry yesterday, and I think I can do an aluminum part for a price close to the 3D printed part, the only difference is that I need, like the shifters, 10 or more person that want one to start. I'm not done with all the costs yet so I can't tell you a price. Should be around 300$. Also, I found the datasheet for the 3D printed material: https://www.shapeways.com/rrstatic/material_docs/mds-strongflex.pdf The plenum operates at a temperature way lower than those value, so it's safe. If you are interested in having one in aluminum, you can send me a PM. Thank you! Ben. |
Sooo...
Just to be sure, I've send a mail to IPD. We'll see! |
Quote:
the true problem is with the inside radii when the flow splits - too sharp a curve and the flow delaminates. so, the primary focus would be to make a plenum that has larger inside radii, as the OEM tube has a very sharp bend in it. the other issue is that you are limited to a smaller throttle body; 67 mm on the S models. it would be nice to be able to use a cheap 76 mm throttle body take-off from a 996/997/Cayman. you need a different plenum for that, however. the thing is, the OEM 997 plenum at $40 new meets all these needs, so the only real benefit of an aftermarket piece is to match the secondary diameters to the intake runners. That is a benefit, however, as is anything that makes it easier to install the part. with that in mind then perhaps consider the ducting between the throttle body and airbox as well, so that you can sell as a kit and add some value to your product. personally, I think the real market is with the 996/997/Cayman guys. these cars have bigger engines and can actually benefit from the 83 mm GT3 throttle body. unfortunately, there is no OEM plenum that will drop in (the GT3 intake is configured differently) and the aftermarket stuff is at IPD prices. |
Thanks for the advice :)
I just received an e-mail saying that IPD's mailbox is full, so they didn't receive my mail... we'll see Monday. My main goal was to make a plenum that easily drops in place of the old one, without complex intake tube, stretched boots and a almost factory look. I didn't like the 911 plenum solution, even is it's the cheaper and that it still gives result. For the intake tube, I don't think I will include it in a kit (unless people really want to, I can figure out a way) as it would just add complexity for me (waiting for more deliveries that might be lost... like what happened with the ball bearing for my shifters). Two of these: + one of these: Will make a perfect intake tube! that's what I use: http://nsa37.casimages.com/img/2016/...1630211850.jpg EDIT: I've just checked, I can have that cheaper if I have at least 10 people. As you said, the benefit with my plenum is the inside radius, I can't have them smoother! I first went to the Y shape because the 3D printed part wasn't stiff enough in the version I tested (but still perform perfectly!). For the 987.1, I think the use the same dimension as the 986 ? And the 987.2 is too big for me :/ Now, I will work on figuring out how to make it out of aluminum (the fittings, small details that will make it easier to produce etc...) and how to make the 3D printed part stiffer without the Y shape. In case IPD answer negatively. If you would be interested in getting one, PM me so I can see how many are interested :) Ben. |
1) re: IPD. I don't think I would poke that skunk. Their counsel will undoubtedly ask you to cease production and alledge infringement, whether legally correct or not, just to protect their future rights.
2) while I like the idea of aluminum as a more durable material, won't it result in more transfer of heat from the engine compartment to the incoming stream of air, thus decreasing density? 3) I'm interested. |
Quote:
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Quote:
Aluminum is stronger, but yes, nylon doesn't conduct heat like aluminum does, they both have their pros and cons: 3D Printed Nylon: -No production run needed -can easily be made to suit 76 and 83mm TB -doesn't conduct heat well -cheaper Aluminum: -Strong and durable -Better surface finish (can be media blasted to achieve the perfect finish) -A lot more expensive -conduct heat well Quote:
Right now, I have a little something that might be interesting, I'll post another thread ;) Ben. |
I'm done with the last version.
It does not infringe the patent, and should resist, it's thicker than any of the other. Pretty sure two persons (two like me at least^^) can step on it without breaking it. Problem, now it cost way more to make... but still under 300$ ! Try this link, you should be able to see it: Porsche Boxster Intake Plenum (F3SH5ZNFE) by Ben006 I'll continue to update it until I now what I'm allowed to do or not. |
I should get an answer from IPD tonight!
Then, last verifications and I'll make the new prototype according to what they will say ! ben. |
Hi!
I received the answer from IPD yesterday, and its... no. Well, good thing I already started the new version! So now, this week end I'll check the final dimension, and order the part! It should take a week to arrive. Then I'll use it for a while, I'll probably do a track day with it next month. But if I see nothing abnormal during the first weeks, I'll make it available and you'll be able to grab one! Since I need to re-check some things, I can't tell a price right now, but expect it to be around 260/270$ (without the throttle body and intake tube). Thanks guys! Ben |
http://nsa37.casimages.com/img/2016/...1758173255.jpg
http://nsa37.casimages.com/img/2016/...1800677191.jpg http://nsa37.casimages.com/img/2016/...1757936039.jpg Here is the final version... now I just need to print it... It's stressful! |
I should receive it in 10 to 12 days!
For those who are still sceptic... the oil filter cover is also nylon (15% or so glass fiber), and has no problem with the oil temp and high pressure ;) |
Guess what's there!
http://nsa38.casimages.com/img/2016/...1722819286.jpg http://nsa38.casimages.com/img/2016/...1720104493.jpg http://nsa38.casimages.com/img/2016/...1719837231.jpg http://nsa37.casimages.com/img/2016/...1719594978.jpg It feels even more solid than the old one! I need to clean it before trying it. It should also fit even better since the TB will be 6mm further back and will clear the starter solenoid perfectly! Ben |
Nice work !!
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Looks good! I continue to follow this and your shifter thread.
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OKAY!
This morning I woke up with a headache... but I couldn't wait more! So... http://nsa37.casimages.com/img/2016/...2605124872.jpg Yep, I put my dirty fingers all over it! http://nsa38.casimages.com/img/2016/...2557588010.jpg For comparison: http://nsa38.casimages.com/img/2016/...2604231637.jpg So, first, I have some modifications to do, to make it easier to fit, nothing major, but still (it stretches the boots too much to my liking, and the PCV fittings are too close to each other.) The fact that it's 5mm shorter makes the intake tube very easy to fit, and there's lot of clearance now. I had to turn the cross tube a little because the stiffening ribs were hitting the valve mechanism... takes 30sec, but took me 15min of driving to figure! The howling noise after 5000 was missing, and the engine was very linear. I drove it for around 20minutes, the mid range torque is still present, I haven't pushed it too much, I want to go gradually. (And I don't want a ticket...) Today is a hot day with very low humidity today (35% right now) which isn't that great for power... so, doesn't matter anyway. I checked after a bit of driving: http://nsa38.casimages.com/img/2016/...2605453193.jpg It's actually cooler than it was when it sat in the sun while I was working! So, not worried about temp problem! I'll still check after longer drives. I'll drive it as long as my AOS survives (remember last time? ^^), and check it regularly. By the end of the week I should be able to tell any gain in power (the last one did, so this one should). I did take a video... but I'll take another one where I don't film my license plate... Ben |
Hi!
The idle is finally stable :) But the AOS is starting to give up... again. It's OK, it only affect idle a bit, it's not too bad now. Like the last time, the sound is very nice! After 2000rpm it has the same power, maybe a bit more. And after 3000rpm it definitely has more power. I'll check if everything is right this evening when the sun won't cook me alive. The only thing I don't like about it... is the wind noise at part throttle, I drive without the insulation on the cover now (so I can access it quickly) and its noisy... I'll try with the insulation back on tomorrow. Again, I feel like a tune/remap would really work great with it, but I can't afford it right now. Ben. |
Hello!
After a week of driving it (~260 miles) the idle is now very stable, just as stock. The power as greatly increased from 2000rpm through redline, it's really noticeable! Below 2000rpm, it's different as expected. between 1300/1500 and 2000rpm, it feels like stock, and below that there's slightly less, but it's completely out of the operating range so it doesn't matter much. I checked it everyday (we had a quite hot week this week) and no problem detected. So, testing continue next week ;) and May 24th I'll do a trackday with it. Ben |
Litlle update:
My gas mileage hasn't change 24.9mpg. Usually I'm between 23 and 25.5mpg. I took one of my friend for a ride, and he also noticed the increase in power, it's not only in my head ;) testing continues! (Can't wait to be Tuesday...) Ben. |
Hi guys!
Another update :) I did a track day with the plenum yesterday... it was perfect, didn't have any problem, and made consistent power all throughout the rev range with a beautiful noise! I have to visually check it, but since the car still runs great, there shouldn't be any problem. The testing will continue until the end of June at least. My gas mileage hasn't change significantly either. For comparison: A stock 986 S https://www.facebook.com/benjamin.nenert/videos/10209542163249346/?l=3024385774512079470 Mine with the plenum, headers and mid pipes: https://www.facebook.com/benjamin.nenert/videos/10209542163369349/?l=3745880025100679306 https://www.facebook.com/benjamin.nenert/videos/10209542163289347/?l=3187950946171532859 I'm very please with it so far! Ben |
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