Track Day Host Sued for Accident Damages

[Geof3]

Originally Posted by thstone

The first thing that I want to make clear is that I fully believe that we all take responsibility when we enter the track.

But after talking with a couple of friends about this case, I wanted to convey what some people believe will be the basis for the rider's claim of gross negligence;

The rider will claim that the sandbags were never intended to be part of the track run off area. The rider will present evidence showing that the design of the track never included sandbags in those areas.

Thus, the rider will claim that the sandbags created an "artificial obstacle" that either caused/contributed to him crashing or caused his crash to more serious than would have occurred if the area had been maintained consistent with intended design of track runoff areas - meaning plain dirt/gravel.

Furthermore, the rider will claim that the sandbags were not placed there to improve the safety of the racers but to accomodate rain. Therefore, the safety of the sandbags had never been properly evaluated in terms of risk and the potential for reducing safety, and thus, they should have been removed after any threat of rain had passed to avoid creating an artificial obstacle in run off area.

Your thoughts?

Stone, I think the question would have to be, how long have the bags been a part of that area? You do make a couple of good points, but tracks have hazards. If a track, when originally designed, didn't have a wall somewhere, then added one, let's say just for aesthetic reasons, and someone hit said wall, would that be a similar scenario?

Looking at the footage of just the impact of the bag could suggest it "caused the accident" to someone less knowledgeable. However, there is no doubt the rider was already done. In this case, really, it's all a matter of bad luck. He could have buried the front end into gravel, or lowsided into the runout, grabbed a peg and high sided violently. Happens all the time. Bad luck.

[husker boxster]

Tom - interesting points in your 2nd post. But let's think about the various scenarios around the placement of the sandbags...

1. Assume LS didn't bother to put the sandbags up at all. There would be some wicked gullies that would either need to be addressed after every rain or left for the drivers to contend with at ea. event. Obviously LS would not want to be doing constant landscape grooming, so it makes sense to have the sandbags during rainy season. BTW, it looked like the runoff area was relatively smooth up to the 1st sandbag in the video.

2. Should LS have removed them for this event? How long is their rainy season? They couldn't be expected to know when the rainy season was over. Not sure when this event was held but it obviously was during the rainy season. Should they be expected to remove & replace for each winter event? R&Ring the sandbags for every event would cost $$$ and would have to be passed on to the consumers. And what happens if it rains during an event? Do they put the sandbags out or let the dirt run onto the track and create gullies along the side of the track, or cancel the event because the track is unsafe?

3. The organizers should have seen the sangbags during track inspection and requested LS have them removed before the event took place. Can you imagine the delay this would have caused? I imagine there would be sandbags over in T8 and T9 areas that would need removing too. That could have wiped out 2 hrs of the morning. Then what happens if it rains?

Bottom line is it isn't unreasonable to have the sandbags there. If the rider was freaked out with them, he certainly could have backed off in the areas where there were sandbags. He chose to drive fast thru those areas.

Someone in our club rented our local track during the off season a yr ago. Pit out spits you onto the beginning of the main straight, which is followed by a fairly slow 90 deg turn. On my 1st lap, I was barrolling down the straight and suddenly noticed the brake signs were removed. I realized it after my normal brake zone so I blew hitting the apex but made the corner. The next several laps were used to find visual spots on the track or nearby to locate brake zones. You learn and adapt.

I've driven at Laguna Seca, Kansas Speedway, COTA, and Indy. All of those tracks are fairly wide open when it comes to runoff areas. Several of my club buddies like to go up to Road America for a mid-week 2-day DE in June. I've watched videos from there and it's an old school track with barriers not far off the track. Basically if you go off, you're going to crash. While the track looks like a lot of fun and has some high speed sections, I've chosen not to run there because of the smaller margin for error. The closest I've ever come to having an "off" is running over the water grate inside of T8 at Laguna, but I factor safety into my decisions on where I run. No one is holding a gun to my head saying I have to participate. The same applies to the motorcycle driver.

It will be a shame if this lawsuit ruins track day events. I guess it was a matter of time before someone was able to poke holes in the signed waiver. Personal responsibility is long gone.

[stephen wilson]

Tough call. Motorcycles do require unique measures to assure reasonably safe runoff area as compared to cars. Like the hay bales you see at Woodward and temporary circuits. That's part of hosting a MC event. F1 has problems with runoff/curbing becoming part of the racing surface because they were made MC safe, and thus less effective for cars. What many of you are saying is that if the track put a telephone pole in the exit area runoff, drivers should just "know it's there" and not kill themselves on it ?

BTW, that's one of the problems with "track days". They tend to be on a tight budget, and may not have the staffing and safety equipment/personnel of a bigger sanctioned event.

[maytag]

Originally Posted by stephen wilson

What many of you are saying is that if the track put a telephone pole in the exit area runoff, drivers should just "know it's there" and not kill themselves on it ?

Stephen, I don't think that's what we're saying (or, at least I'm not, haha). What I'm saying is that you can argue extremes (like a telephone pole) on either end of the spectrum. But a sandbag placed to divert rain from entering the racing surface is NOT an extreme. The court has already ruled that placement of the sandbag was not negligent, and intimated that in fact it is viewed as a reasonable measure to improve safety. The only thing still in question is whether the track day host was negligent in their decision to hold the event on a track with those known conditions.

Let's ask another illustrative hypothetical: Let's say it was raining. Let's say the track day host (like all of us before him) decided to run the day anyway, because the track will not offer any credit or refund for a rain-out. Let's say you suck at riding in the rain, but you decide to ride that day anyway. Then you crash.

Who's at fault? are YOU at fault? or is the track day host at fault?

I don't see this as substantively different. The responsibility to ride within your limits is yours. beyond that, are reasonable efforts taken to ensure safety? The court has already ruled that the sandbag falls within that category.

[stephen wilson]

My point is that what is pretty inconsequential to a car driver can be catastrophic (telephone pole) to a motorcycle. Not the same as your rain example, which should still have reasonably safe runoff areas. Performance driving is never 100% under control, even if it's due to a mechanical failure.

[maytag]

Originally Posted by stephen wilson

My point is that what is pretty inconsequential to a car driver can be catastrophic (telephone pole) to a motorcycle. Not the same as your rain example, which should still have reasonably safe runoff areas. Performance driving is never 100% under control, even if it's due to a mechanical failure.

My friend, a sand bag to a motorcycle is NOT the equivalent of a telephone pole to a car.
As a professional myself, I'd tell you (as many others already have) that Kim was crashing with or without that sand bag. And I can tell you many, many people (including myself) have hit much, much worse on a run out, without crashing.

Could we say that the sandbag contributed to the severity of the accident? Quite possibly. Maybe probably. But it certainly did not cause the accident. Not even a remote stretch of the imagination could make it so. The cause of the accident is quite clearly Mr Kim running off the race track in a manner that was consistent with a crash. As I said below, he blew it. He blew it. He blew it long before he left the racing surface. And the moment he left the racing surface, he determined he was going to crash. You can see it in his failure to control the motorcycle on the asphalt, and his continued failure to control the motorcycle in the runoff. He blew it. He did it.

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[maytag]

Originally Posted by maytag

My friend, a sand bag to a motorcycle is NOT the equivalent of a telephone pole to a car.
As a professional myself, I'd tell you (as many others already have) that Kim was crashing with or without that sand bag. And I can tell you many, many people (including myself) have hit much, much worse on a run out, without crashing.

Could we say that the sandbag contributed to the severity of the accident? Quite possibly. Maybe probably. But it certainly did not cause the accident. Not even a remote stretch of the imagination could make it so. The cause of the accident is quite clearly Mr Kim running off the race track in a manner that was consistent with a crash. As I said below, he blew it. He blew it. He blew it long before he left the racing surface. And the moment he left the racing surface, he determined he was going to crash. You can see it in his failure to control the motorcycle on the asphalt, and his continued failure to control the motorcycle in the runoff. He blew it. He did it.

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I hit send too soon, haha.
I'll tell you furthermore, that your comment about still having safe runoff areas even in the rain, is inapplicable. Crashes in the rain rarely happen when you take the run off, because crashes happen on the racing surface in the rain. That's why many of us have trailered motorcycles all over the country, only to leave them in the trailer when we get there, because it's raining. Riding in the rain sucks. Haha.
I think my comparison is quite valid, because what it illustrates is that we, the motorcyclist, the track day participant, take the responsibility to ride in the conditions as they are presented to us. Reasonable precautions are made by the track owner, and the track day provider. The court has already ruled that the sandbag is a reasonable precaution, and that it contributed more to safety than as a hazard. So that question is no longer a question to anyone. Or at least it should not be one any longer.

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[stephen wilson]

Originally Posted by maytag

My friend, a sand bag to a motorcycle is NOT the equivalent of a telephone pole to a car.
As a professional myself, I'd tell you (as many others already have) that Kim was crashing with or without that sand bag. And I can tell you many, many people (including myself) have hit much, much worse on a run out, without crashing.

Could we say that the sandbag contributed to the severity of the accident? Quite possibly. Maybe probably. But it certainly did not cause the accident. Not even a remote stretch of the imagination could make it so. The cause of the accident is quite clearly Mr Kim running off the race track in a manner that was consistent with a crash. As I said below, he blew it. He blew it. He blew it long before he left the racing surface. And the moment he left the racing surface, he determined he was going to crash. You can see it in his failure to control the motorcycle on the asphalt, and his continued failure to control the motorcycle in the runoff. He blew it. He did it.

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Well yeah, I was exaggerating a bit, and yes, it was a given he's going down. I'll defer to those that have actually raced their bikes, I just ride on the street !