anyone else think their car needs lowered?

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by Bavarian Motorist

Just a question:

Can I lower my car w/ just lowering springs? Do I NEED the entire setup?

If so, I would like to do this. They aren't that expensive!

Hi,

One drawback to using only springs to lower the car is that the geometry is not preserved. You will increase the negative camber which will increase the car's tire-eating abilities...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[z12358]

Originally Posted by MNBoxster

Hi,

One drawback to using only springs to lower the car is that the geometry is not preserved. You will increase the negative camber which will increase the car's tire-eating abilities...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

Any drawbacks to using spacers like lwc did?

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by z12358

Any drawbacks to using spacers like lwc did?

Hi,

Generally not, but there are a couple of caveats.

• Not all spacers are created equal. Be sure to use quality hub-centric spacers. The cheaper ones are often not machined to exacting tolerances and vary considerably. This can induce a tire imbalance. Also, they must be installed carefully, it's very easy to introduce some variation just by installing them willy-nilly.
  
  Keep the spacers to no more than 17mm. Going wider effectively softens the Spring Rates because you are essentially lengthening the lower control arm and it's angles. Too wide, and again, you induce greater negative camber. It will also change your steering response at the limit, something which may cause someone unfamiliar with the feel to improperly respond with negative consequences.
  
  Finally, whenever doing any work to the Wheels, Tires, Suspension, you need to get a full 4-wheel alignment. Alignment isn't as permanent as many people seem to think. Hit one good bump or Pothole, and you'll likely throw it off. Everytime I auto-x my cars or track my formula vee, the alignment is altered. This needs to be done much more often than many people think to remain spot on. On a Street Car, it should be done annually, or whenever doing any work to the areas mentioned above.

Hope this helps...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[porsche986spyder]

I've had 2 other cars in the past and only lowered them by using springs.On my turbo Neon, I used Eibach with no need to replace the shocks or buy an expensive coilover kit. My second car was a superchaged, not turbo, PT Cruiser. It too was only lowered using springs. I used H&R. Now keep in mind this was only done for astetics. So if your doing it just for the looks, there is no need to buy a complete coilover system. But if you want to take it to the track, by all means, use a complete coil over kit. I had 18" rims and tires on both cars with no problems. These cars were driven on a daily basis. As for the alignment, absolutely. That should be done anyway with out beign even said, at least as a maintenance issue also. So far I have not heard anyone mention sway bars or strut tower braces. If your going to lower your car and change the wheel size then you will want to add both of these to the front and rear. As for the camber, that should be done when the car is give the alignment. All of which can be adjusted and dialed in. Considering the ride quality of my boxster, I'm still not sure if I would lower my car, only because I feel it is to low already. I have 18" rims and tires on it now. But if I dicided to lower it, I would only buy the springs, strut tower braces and some better anti-sway bars. As for cutting stock springs, I would definately advise against it. Stock springs are not made of the same thickness of metarial used on aftermarket lowering springs. Plus the after market srings are pre-wound closer together for a stiffer spring rate. People who cut thier springs will notice a bouncey feel, and you shocks will surely go out very fast. That's my 2 cents!

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by porsche986spyder

I've had 2 other cars in the past and only lowered them by using springs.On my turbo Neon, I used Eibach with no need to replace the shocks or buy an expensive coilover kit. My second car was a superchaged, not turbo, PT Cruiser. It too was only lowered using springs. I used H&R. Now keep in mind this was only done for astetics. So if your doing it just for the looks, there is no need to buy a complete coilover system. But if you want to take it to the track, by all means, use a complete coil over kit. I had 18" rims and tires on both cars with no problems. These cars were driven on a daily basis. As for the alignment, absolutely. That should be done anyway with out beign even said, at least as a maintenance issue also. So far I have not heard anyone mention sway bars or strut tower braces. If your going to lower your car and change the wheel size then you will want to add both of these to the front and rear. As for the camber, that should be done when the car is give the alignment. All of which can be adjusted and dialed in. Considering the ride quality of my boxster, I'm still not sure if I would lower my car, only because I feel it is to low already. I have 18" rims and tires on it now. But if I dicided to lower it, I would only buy the springs, strut tower braces and some better anti-sway bars. As for cutting stock springs, I would definately advise against it. Stock springs are not made of the same thickness of metarial used on aftermarket lowering springs. Plus the after market srings are pre-wound closer together for a stiffer spring rate. People who cut thier springs will notice a bouncey feel, and you shocks will surely go out very fast. That's my 2 cents!

Hi,

For aesthetics only, I agree with you. But, we're mixing two completely different things here - aesthetics and performance, and they can be diametrically opposed.

I also have to point out that the two cars you named lack the refinement and sensitivity of a Sports Car suspension, especially the Boxster's. You can do all sorts of stuff to them without noticing it on the other end.

Too many people take a cavalier attitude to lowering their cars, forgetting all-the-while that they're possibly affecting the safety of the car, if they impede the suspension's ability to perform as it was designed.

If you lower the car too much, you may need to use a stiffer (not always better) anti-roll bar to preserve the weight shifting characteristics, since the spring rates are softer. But, a strut tower brace (while a good thing anytime) does not offer any particular advantage which would offset a discrepancy caused by lowering, that's not what they do.

Agree, you should never cut the OEM springs. These are progressive springs and aside from the danger of losing the temper from the high temp of a torch or cutter, you eliminate or interupt the spring's ability to transition to a higher/lower spring rate. This can seriously affect ride quality...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[Bavarian Motorist]

Yikes.

I had a feeling simple buying springs seemed too easy.


I guess this is one project that will have to wait. That or 19" wheels.


Thanks guys One less possibility clouding my mind.

LOL, I only said to take a torch to them because thats how they used to do it to the old low riders. The mexicans (not being racist) would chain up the suspension and torch it to collapse it. It lost all ability to spring, so it was completely stiff. I saw it all on TLC, that and those amazing paint jobs, wow...

[porsche986spyder]

Originally Posted by MNBoxster

Hi,

I also have to point out that the two cars you named lack the refinement and sensitivity of a Sports Car suspension, especially the Boxster's.

But, a strut tower brace (while a good thing anytime) does not offer any particular advantage which would offset a discrepancy caused by lowering, that's not what they do.

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

So you think that a SRT-4 Dodge Neon does not have a sports car suspension?!? As fore the PT, well it may not be in the fame class even, but the FRAME & CHASIS, even the engine used for these 2 Chrysler vehicles is almost identical. They used the Neon as a platform to build the PT. As for the strutt brace, I NEVER said it did that. I simply said it was good to add on for structural suport. It just gives your chassis/frame that extra needed suport to keep it from flexing. Yes it has NO advantage for lowering.

[Bavarian Motorist]

An srt-4 is the last car I'd consider a sports car. More like a wannabe sports car.


I don't even have to look it up to know that there was no sports car suspension on a 19,000 dollar neon srt-4. There's just no way.

Not even a vette has a sports car suspension.

[eslai]

My two cents, even though it probably is redundant at this point:

Lowering a car "on-the-cheap" will always give you unsatisfactory results. I personally say "don't screw with the suspension".

I've had a lot of experience with different suspension setups on my Eclipse. We did a lot of prototyping for different suspension setups for race and street, especially trying to find a cost-effective and viable setup that could perform well on both the street and track. We used off-the-shelf springs from different manufacturers, specific monotube coilovers, different control arms, bushings, an odd assortment of sway bars--even custom fabbed some parts on a lathe in our quest.

After a lot of experimentation we ended up with a setup that would cost people about $4000 and handle like a dream, but would still be more harsh than most people would want to use on a daily basis unless they were pretty hardcore about turning. I was shooting for performance, not looks, but yes, the car was nicely lowered.

My point is, it takes a lot of money to do things right in this area (imagine if I had been doing all that on a Porsche...yikes!). If you just want the car to look better, don't slam it, go the wheel route like SD987 suggested. If you start tweaking with the suspension, you're going to end up with a sore ass and a scraped front bumper, along with a polarizing look (I hate the look of a wheel slammed up into the fender, but still having massive gaps fore and aft of the tire).

Keep in mind as well that just lowering the car on springs is going to screw up your camber, reduce shock travel, pound you in the back, and potentially lower your roll center enough to really screw with your overall suspension geometry. You might end up with an unpredictable or just plain poorly-handling car.

By the way, I have PASM on my 987 and I disagree with SD987--I can easily see the difference between PASM and non-PASM-equipped cars, but I don't think the standard ride height looks bad, personally.

[z12358]

Originally Posted by MNBoxster

Hi,

Generally not, but there are a couple of caveats.

• Not all spacers are created equal. Be sure to use quality hub-centric spacers. The cheaper ones are often not machined to exacting tolerances and vary considerably. This can induce a tire imbalance. Also, they must be installed carefully, it's very easy to introduce some variation just by installing them willy-nilly.
  
  Keep the spacers to no more than 17mm. Going wider effectively softens the Spring Rates because you are essentially lengthening the lower control arm and it's angles. Too wide, and again, you induce greater negative camber. It will also change your steering response at the limit, something which may cause someone unfamiliar with the feel to improperly respond with negative consequences.
  
  Finally, whenever doing any work to the Wheels, Tires, Suspension, you need to get a full 4-wheel alignment. Alignment isn't as permanent as many people seem to think. Hit one good bump or Pothole, and you'll likely throw it off. Everytime I auto-x my cars or track my formula vee, the alignment is altered. This needs to be done much more often than many people think to remain spot on. On a Street Car, it should be done annually, or whenever doing any work to the areas mentioned above.

Hope this helps...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

Thx. If someone (apart from lwc) has pics of their stock Box (especially 987) with spacers I'd appreciate to see them. I wouldn't want to fiddle with the suspension (which I like a lot as it is) if the vusual effect is only marginal.

Z.

http://photos-181.ak.facebook.com/ip004/v38/81/6/66804639/n66804639_30344181_5231.jpg
http://photos-183.ak.facebook.com/ip004/v38/81/6/66804639/n66804639_30344183_7048.jpg
I have 7mm spacers on the rear, but overall the width is a lot greater front and rear so it fills out the wheel wells nicely.

[der Geist]

I just got in my 18" chromes and while I was putting them on I thought I would snap a quick pic so whoever wanted to could compare the 17" & 18" side by side. The car is lowered about 1 1/4" with coilovers. My $.02 on the lowering springs vs coilover is this-If you are going through all the trouble to take the entire suspension apart it just doesn't make sense to not do the coilovers. With lowering springs you have additional labor, while coilovers cost a bit more than springs. There are at least 2 companies now that sell coilovers for around $1100.00 delivered. The advantage to the coilovers is that you can adjust the height in a matter of minutes and with the lowering springs you have a major job to get the car back up to the US height. You also have the advantage of adjusting the stiffness of the coilover with ease for street/track/autocross. I was just in Germany last week and I did see a number of Porsches buzzin' around the streets of Berlin in the snow all of them with Euro spec ride height and they looked so much better than the US height.

[Bavarian Motorist]

So I can just buy coilovers and nothing else? That sounds like a good plan. I don't want to buy what I don't NEED to buy, but I don't want to buy the bare minimum either because that approach usually causes more prolems.


Thanks