Porsche Stability Management

[racer_d]

Originally Posted by MNBoxster

Hi,

You're quite right about the sanctioning bodies, but of course, these change their rules and tech requirements often from the cumulative pressure of sponsors and competitors.

ABS will almost always hinder a car's stopping abilities, it's inherent in how it works though I concede there are many variables to consider.

No arguement about ABS's ability to preserve the steerability of the car, but that arguement requires that the Driver actually use this capability to steer away from the trouble and as I stated, as a rule, Drivers are not taught to do this or how. Consequently, there is no statistical data showing significant accident reduction due to the advent and adoption of ABS...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

Seems we agree! It would make sense that some people avoided accidents because of the ABS providing them the ability to avoid an accident, thus not providing any imperical data that ABS did not reduce the number of accidents.

I would say that now that ABS has been around for nearly 20 years in passenger cars, even if people learned "by accident" of its advantages it is something that SHOULD be on a passenger car. Race car? maybe not.

I love to threshold brake as much as the next would be racer when i am at the track.

Then again, the discipline to apply only threshold braking without locking them up, when another car is suddenly stopped in front of you, or in your lane etc, is very hard to master. Frist thought is "stop" car ASAP.. mash brakes to accomplish.. get "deer in the headlights" syndrome and hit the vehicle/object you were trying to avoid.

Years of Drivers Ed/Autocross events and experience in general has taught me that sometimes "stopping" isn't the best option. Steering is... sliding is... accelerating is.. As mentioned, way to many variables to come up with 1 rule for all instances.

I will enjoy the ABS my new car has for DE/AX events. I will enjoy it on the street. But thank goodness my car doesn't have PSM so I can still enjoy sliding her around

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by racer_d

Seems we agree! It would make sense that some people avoided accidents because of the ABS providing them the ability to avoid an accident, thus not providing any imperical data that ABS did not reduce the number of accidents. I will enjoy the ABS my new car has for DE/AX events. I will enjoy it on the street. But thank goodness my car doesn't have PSM so I can still enjoy sliding her around

Hi,

Since we each have some considerable Track experience, I'm not surprised that we agree.

One small point though, your hypothetical about the accident which didn't happen and therefore not added to the Ins. Stats may be valid. But, the ins. statistic of rear end collisions/mi. driven remains unchanged since the advent of ABS. So while I am also sure that some accidents have been avoided due to ABS and not reported, not enough to positively impact the statistics. The rate remains the same...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[Sammy]

As always, I appreciate the respectful discussion of a contested claim.

For what it's worth, my claim is not from my own making but simply regurgitating a statement that was made from one of those three names that I threw out there. I happened to have the opportunity to ride/drive a S2000 around a handling course with one of those experienced racers and the question was directly asked "can you brake faster than ABS?" The response was the statement I made... This was supported by another person who has written vehicle dynamics books and trained countless people on the theory of maximum handling.

Every formula 1 race I've ever seen (road course) has had numerous instances where a driver slid a wheel and ended up too far in a corner resulting in losing a place and many times wrecking the car. If anything they become conservative in braking because they can't afford to lock a wheel. This is where the driver skill comes in and separates the men from the boys...

[shaman1204]

Quote:


"ABS will almost always hinder a car's stopping abilities, it's inherent in how it works though I concede there are many variables to consider.

No arguement about ABS's ability to preserve the steerability of the car, but that arguement requires that the Driver actually use this capability to steer away from the trouble and as I stated, as a rule, Drivers are not taught to do this or how. Consequently, there is no statistical data showing significant accident reduction due to the advent and adoption of ABS...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99"


While attending the FBI Academy I had to take the 40 hour Tactical Emergency Vehicular Operator's Course (TEVOC) in Quantico, VA. We had one practical where you maintain the vehicle in a straight line driving approx. 55mph heading directy towards a barrier. On each side of the barrier were two lanes with lights above them, once you crossed a line and tripped a light you had to slam on the brakes and activate the ABS and steer the car into whichever lane was illuminated. It felt like you were going to crash into the barrier every time, but the excercise shows you just how the ABS was designed to allow the car to be steered in a safe direction. ABS has nothing to do with improved stopping distances, at least that's what we were told. The TEVOC course was awesome, we had a Mustang, Camaro and a bunch of Caprices. Taking the course really shows you how much you can push a car and what they are really capable of.

[z12358]

Let me state first that I've only had two DE track days in my life and I consider myself to be an average driver. To me this ABS and PSM discussion is not about whether a man can outperform the machine but more about frequency of measurements and adjustments (FMA). In both ABS and PSM, it is clear that the machine can measure and adjust more frequently than the driver. We now only need to decide when the benefits of FMA outweigh its costs (i.e. the time it takes to perform them).

I believe that over the long term and on average, FMA will improve the performance of ANY driver. Let me explain. A very good driver may be very good at nailing (sensing, anticipating, predicting, etc.) the threshold (lock or slide) 99 times out of a 100 without the benefits of FMA, but that 1 time out of a 100 when he misses it, the car ends up smashed into the concrete. With FMA, that same driver may slightly underperform during those 99 times but will signifficantly outperform that 1 time when he would have crashed otherwise. Having a car to drive and a life to live, to me, is a signifficant outperformance over the long run.

I also believe that by tweaking the FMA (optimizing time spent vs information gathered and adjustments made) it can be fine-tuned so that each driver can outperform with it even in those 99 times out of 100, making it a hands down winner. The FMA (PSM, ABS) in our cars have been tuned for an audience of millions, thus not optimally matched to each of us individually.

To those suggesting that FMA migt hinder learning, consider this: Decreasing the chance of ruin (car, limbs, life, etc) increases the average length of time a student will spend studying, and the level of enjoyment while doing it. So I do believe that a student with FMA will end up learning more than a student without one. Something like the tortoise winning over the hare.

It rained on my first track day, then the sun came out, making the track a mosaic of wet and dry patches in the afternoon. Both times that the PSM switched on, I was thankful that it did. My instructor didn't know I had PSM and he commanded me on "saving my a**" like a pro, each time me telling him that it was the PSM and not me. That same day, TWO GT3's from the black and red run groups slid out into a wall. I wonder if they had PSM, ABS, or none.

Z.

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by z12358

Let me state first that I've only had two DE track days in my life and I consider myself to be an average driver... Z.

Hi,

Your logic is kinda skewed. You may not think the discussion is about Man outperforming the Machine, but it is, or at least has been. It's not about a cost/benefit analysis of FMA/speed, it's about making the car perform at it's best and a skilled driver will do so better without the hindrance of these electronic aids than with them.

A 1 chance in 100 arguement of the type you have stated again, has little to do with the discussion. No one said these devices weren't safer, everyone here has supported their use for the average guy. Besides, again, you're proposing an analysis, not a judgement. There is at least a 1:100 chance of losing control and wrecking the car everytime you attend a Track or DE event (if not everytime you drive the car), is that justification enough not to do it? To some perhaps, but not for others.

As for other cars losing control, you're assuming that they didn't have these aids which may or may not have been true. Even with these aids, you can stretch the performance envelope sufficiently that the car breaks away and the Laws of Physics take over. Perhaps these cars were so equipped (they at least certainly had ABS) and their Drivers were deluded that these very aids would prevent them from pushing too far. That's just as good a supposition as the one you're making. And bolsters the arguement made by myself and others that these aids can become a crutch and impede learning.

So far as fine-tuning the aid's computers, there are several problems. First, you'd need the codes and the manufacturer is unlikely to release them for liability purposes, if for nothing else. Second, these aids do nothing but respond in a pre-programmed fashion to some innocuous signals received from various sensors. They do not have any idea of the intention of the driver, or what's in the Driver's Mind, what he sees, feels and relates to his/her experience base.

It's about Control. And these aids take control away from the Driver, and usually at a time when their concentration is required elsewhere. This control acquisition also takes place well short of the edge, where some combination of engineers and techno geeks decided an appropriate all-around Safety Margin should be.

In my lengthy and considerable Track experience, I'm fortunate enough to say that I've only kissed a wall twice (though in adverse conditions), but I've had more than my share of personal experience with Runoff areas and other competitors (their fault and mine) . But, in each event, costs were not so great (certainly acceptable given the risk I chose to take, and necessary to be competitive), no bent, or broken, people resulted (always the best thing), but learning took place. Some risk is inherent in all Motorsports whether it be Class Racing, DE or Auto-X.

For the General Public, operating on Public Roads, these aids are probably a good thing as I've stated before. But, for a skilled Driver, on or off the Track, these aids can be a hindrance. We're fast getting to the point where the only Driver input will be pointing the car - steering, what with all the Egas throttles, CVTs, Accident Avoidance Braking Systems, Smart Cruise Control, Back-up Warning Systems, Self-Parking, and the like. At what point will the lack of Driver input and Control still be considered driving and not simply a Ride-Along? ...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99