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Old 01-03-2007, 07:22 PM   #1
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Porsche Stability Management

Quick question. I noticed that one of the lights in my dash said "PSM OFF". Does this mean that my car has this option or does all boxsters have this light on their dashes? If this is an option that I have, how do you turn it off? TIA!
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Old 01-03-2007, 07:30 PM   #2
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Not all 986's have PSM.

ALL 987's do have PSM.

Are you saying that the "PSM OFF" is lite on your dash or can you see a potential spot for this in your cluster?

If you have PSM, you should have an on/off button in your center console area.

Porsche does not put in a different dash for a non PSM car vs a car with PSM.
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Old 01-03-2007, 07:34 PM   #3
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so wait, ure saying that the light is on saying its off and you still wanna turn it off, or am i getting this wrong?
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Old 01-03-2007, 07:45 PM   #4
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Actually, the light is off. It's just that i noticed that there is a spot in the dash for this. So if you're saying that all boxsters, PSM and Non-PSM's, have the same dash, then I guess I don't have PSM. Also, I don't have the button on the center console to turn it on and off. Thanks guys!
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Old 01-03-2007, 07:59 PM   #5
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well you should have a on/off button if you have it, but the light is there for ones equiped with it
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Old 01-03-2007, 08:21 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by djomlas
well you should have a on/off button if you have it, but the light is there for ones equiped with it
I thought bmusatti said that psm equipped and non-equipped boxsters had the same dash cluster? So what is it really because I have that light on my cluster but i don't have the on/off button?
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Old 01-03-2007, 09:11 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by jmabasa
Quick question. I noticed that one of the lights in my dash said "PSM OFF". Does this mean that my car has this option or does all boxsters have this light on their dashes? If this is an option that I have, how do you turn it off? TIA!
Hi,

The Instrument Cluster includes the PSM OFF idiot light on all cars, whether they have PSM or not (without PSM the light does nothing). The Central Dash Tip Switch (PSM defeat) is part of the PSM system. If you don't have this defeat switch, you don't have PSM...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99
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Old 01-05-2007, 06:25 AM   #8
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A rather ragged passenger recently asked me (after a bit of driving on some nice twisty roads) "What does PSM stand for?"

"Please Save Me." I told him "But it's only for the driver!"
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Old 01-05-2007, 07:03 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Uncle Bob
A rather ragged passenger recently asked me (after a bit of driving on some nice twisty roads) "What does PSM stand for?"

"Please Save Me." I told him "But it's only for the driver!"
Hi,

Good One! Actually, it amazes me how little driving skill is required these days in a so-called Driver's Car.

These techno-gadgets make an average driver better, but usually impede a truly skilled driver.

The ABS, Variable Steering, Traction Control, PSM and the like are controlled by the computer, not the driver. As such, the programmed parameters which dictate when these aids kick-in (or don't) are not programmed for the likes of Fernando Alonzo, but for Joe Schmoe down the street. Some of these aids have defeat switches as a compromise for skilled drivers, but it's still a compromize.

Good for the average guy because it helps keep the car from biting him, allowing him to enjoy a car whose potential is waay above his skill set. Good for the manufacturers because it increases the breadth of their target market, allows them to justify price increases, and reduces their liability and litigation expense.

The downside is that Driver Skill is less rewarding than before, and at a considerable weight penalty. And, with all these aids, it's more difficult for the average guy to develop true driving skill, you learn to dominate the sytems, not the road.

This is one reason why I like my Lotus Esprit so much. It's only Driver aids are synchromesh gearbox and vac boosted brakes - no Traction Control, no Power Assisted Steering, no ABS, no LSD. It's a real workout to take it in the twistys, and you're much more totally immersed in the experience. It can bite you if your careless or not up to the task, but is also much more rewarding in the end.

I'm not so much dissing the modern technology as embracing the the skills required to do without all the wizardry and even outperform those cars which possess it. I think the ideal is to own a modern sports car and also an old analog one - the best of both worlds...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99
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Old 01-05-2007, 07:18 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by MNBoxster
Hi,

Good One! Actually, it amazes me how little driving skill is required these days in a so-called Driver's Car.

These techno-gadgets make an average driver better, but usually impede a truly skilled driver.

The ABS, Variable Steering, Traction Control, PSM and the like are controlled by the computer, not the driver. As such, the programmed parameters which dictate when these aids kick-in (or don't) are not programmed for the likes of Fernando Alonzo, but for Joe Schmoe down the street. Some of these aids have defeat switches as a compromise for skilled drivers, but it's still a compromize.

Good for the average guy because it helps keep the car from biting him, allowing him to enjoy a car whose potential is waay above his skill set. Good for the manufacturers because it increases the breadth of their target market, allows them to justify price increases, and reduces their liability and litigation expense.

The downside is that Driver Skill is less rewarding than before, and at a considerable weight penalty. And, with all these aids, it's more difficult for the average guy to develop true driving skill, you learn to dominate the sytems, not the road.

This is one reason why I like my Lotus Esprit so much. It's only Driver aids are synchromesh gearbox and vac boosted brakes - no Traction Control, no Power Assisted Steering, no ABS, no LSD. It's a real workout to take it in the twistys, and you're much more totally immersed in the experience. It can bite you if your careless or not up to the task, but is also much more rewarding in the end.

I'm not so much dissing the modern technology as embracing the the skills required to do without all the wizardry and even outperform those cars which possess it. I think the ideal is to own a modern sports car and also an old analog one - the best of both worlds...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

This is one of the reason a new 987 buyer should seriously consider the Sport Chrono option (option #639 $920) because this allows a bit more driver input into the car, prior to PSM taking over.
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Old 01-05-2007, 07:45 AM   #11
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I have psm and I think its great. I can turn it off when I want to go without it(like at the track) and I don't believe it adds any weight to the car as the computer is allready there. My wife drives the car sometimes too and isn't used to that kind of power so I made sure to get psm for that reason alone. As far as I can tell it hasn't taken away any of my driving skills. I do wish that there was a switch to disable the abs for the track, but I'm glad to have abs on the car in general. I don't think all of this technology weighs even a fraction of what the air conditioning or the stereo does. I still get a thrill from driving my car every chance I get. I'm glad that the average joe can get a thrill too!
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Old 01-05-2007, 08:09 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by funster
I have psm and I think its great. I can turn it off when I want to go without it(like at the track) and I don't believe it adds any weight to the car as the computer is allready there. My wife drives the car sometimes too and isn't used to that kind of power so I made sure to get psm for that reason alone. As far as I can tell it hasn't taken away any of my driving skills. I do wish that there was a switch to disable the abs for the track, but I'm glad to have abs on the car in general. I don't think all of this technology weighs even a fraction of what the air conditioning or the stereo does. I still get a thrill from driving my car every chance I get. I'm glad that the average joe can get a thrill too!
Hi,

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad the average Joe gets his thrills, we all should. But, as you state, you are compromising, if only for the sake of your wife.

As for ABS, most people are confused about what this actually does. It will not stop the car in a shorter distance or avoid an accident. In the 20 or so odd years that ABS has been available, or even in the past 10 when it was widely available, there has been no reduction of insurance statistics in rear-end collisions.

What ABS does is allow the Driver to keep control of the car so the Driver (not the car) can maneuver around the trouble. The problem is that Drivers are not taught how to do this in Driver Ed or License Testing and so when the eventual accident situation comes along, most just grab the wheel, stand on the brakes, and hold on, frozen like a deer in the headlights. A car without ABS and with a skilled Driver behind the wheel, will consistently stop in a shorter distance than with ABS.

IIRC, the Porsche PSM is not fully defeatable, even with the OFF switch. At some point, the computer will still kick-in. My personal thought is that this can create a false sense of security in the average Driver and cause them to push the car deeper into the Danger Zone than they would otherwise have. In general, it can cause more agressive driving which again, in general, is less safe.

I don't know your history or your skill set, so I don't know if you have anything to compare it too. Many young drivers don't. They have no experience driving without these aids and so may not know how much more thrilling non-assisted spirited driving can be.

But, if I were a father, as soon as my kid got old enough to drive, I'd make autocrossing a requirement for them to maximize their skills. I believe that this teaches skills and respect for a car and how to operate it, and if possible, in a car without the electronic aids so prevalent on today's cars. I believe I'd be doing them an immense favor, and possibly saving them pain and expense...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

Last edited by MNBoxster; 01-05-2007 at 09:11 AM.
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Old 01-05-2007, 08:58 AM   #13
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When I bought my CPO '02 "S" in Sep, I slightly regretted not getting a Boxster with PSM-then took it to the track. Sliding all over the place (street tires), hot day, low and high speed corners (Fontana)- I never felt the loss of PSM. Whenever the car went from neutral to slight oversteer, it was so easy to catch! The most incredible and forgiving car I've ever owned or driven.


Now, if you had to drive in snow or ice (not here in SoCal ), it might come in handy someday
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Old 01-05-2007, 09:07 AM   #14
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I completely agree with everything that you are saying about a skilled driver being better able to better drive any car without the current technology that exists. And I also agree that I have the most fun when I turn as many of these off as I can. I have yet to notice the psm kick in when it's turned off. I also let a number of people drive my car because it is fun for them and introduces them to the experience of driving a Porsche. Someone gave me that opportunity and it led to me getting a Boxster S! When I let someone drive I do make sure that all of that technology is going. Even the most skilled of drivers take a bit to get used to a new car and it's nice to have these features for that. I really don't see the compromise (except for not being able to turn off the abs, but I'm sure there's a hack for that i just haven't found it yet!)
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Old 01-05-2007, 09:54 AM   #15
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I like ABS...
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Old 01-05-2007, 09:59 AM   #16
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Skilled driver with ABS = Faster than skilled driver alone

In my case...

Lousy driver with ABS = Closer to skilled driver alone than before
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Old 01-05-2007, 11:55 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmussatti
This is one of the reason a new 987 buyer should seriously consider the Sport Chrono option (option #639 $920) because this allows a bit more driver input into the car, prior to PSM taking over.
Mine has that and when I can ever get the sun, moon & stars to align....I'll get to a track day with NWPCA!!
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Old 01-05-2007, 12:06 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Sammy
Skilled driver with ABS = Faster than skilled driver alone

In my case...

Lousy driver with ABS = Closer to skilled driver alone than before
Hi,

Your 1st statement is untrue. ABS will not stop a car in as short a distance as without it. This is because the brakes are modulated, meaning very quick ON/OFF intervals. Whenever the Calipers are OFF, they're not bleeding energy (read speed) from the system. By modulating the way they do, ABS prevents wheel lock so the car remains steerable. No race car uses ABS Brakes and if they made the car quicker, by even 0.1 sec., they certainly would. The '89 onward Esprit has ABS Brakes, and all their owners defeat them for Track Days in order to go faster.

Your 2nd statement is very true, and true of all the modern Driver Aids. The drawback to this though is that a Driver learns to rely on these systems to compensate for a lesser skill set. And, if this is the only type car you ever get to drive, your skill acquisition will be slower, if not totally impaired, especially if you ever have to drive without them.

But, since the majority of Sports Car (or high-powered Sports Coupe and Sedan) owners today never concentrate on improving their own driving skills, I think it's a good thing the majority of the cars on the road have these aids, especially if they're sharing the road with me....

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99
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Old 01-05-2007, 12:10 PM   #19
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A skilled driver with abs is not faster than a skilled driver alone. Here is a test that you can do which will illustrate my point. Get going along on a stretch of road with no one behind you and slam on the brakes hard to activate the abs and mark as far as it takes to stop. Then do the same test and apply the brakes as hard as you can without activating the abs and see how far it takes to stop. ( this may take a few tries if you are not familliar with where the car is about to lock up the wheels but eventually you will figure out where that is and you will have gained a new and valuable skill!) You will see that you can stop sooner if the abs does not activate. A skilled driver will stay on the verge of breaking loose and when some skid starts to occur pressure is released slightly to stop the skid then reapplied to the threshhold of skidding again for optimal braking. The same principles apply to psm If you can use as much power as you can put to the pavement by continuously being on that verge of breaking traction then you will go faster than if your car is not allowing you to do this.
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Old 01-05-2007, 12:32 PM   #20
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You guys must have had too many marsupial turds in your coffee... (I'm kidding, I just like using the phrase "marsupial turds"... kind of catchy)

In theory ABS is slower than non-ABS (I completely agree with this); however, a human being cannot break faster than ABS with any level of consistency regardless of skill. You can put Andretti, Montoya, Bondurant, etc, in the same car and let them stop in a straight line 100 times and if they are lucky they just might be able to outstop the ABS a few times. Put them in a turn and the liklihood decreases because the weight shift is much more complicated. As you have mentioned ABS pulses faster than any human being could consciously "lift" off the pedal due to the reaction time. There is no such thing as a zero second reaction time that when a driver recognizes the wheels locking up that he/she can instantaneous lift and reapply the brakes. On the other hand a skilled driver cannot consistently stay at the edge of locking the wheels... He/she can do it better than we can, but not faster than ABS.

I completely agree that it hinders the development of a driver because it acts as a crutch, but it also keeps people safe. We also aren't driving million dollar cars that if we wreck them a sponsor pays for a new one.
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