Worth it to 'check' IMS bearing during clutch? Clutch recommendations?

[piper6909]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

Basically that no roller or ball bearing assembly will survive indefinitely in this application, so anyone claiming otherwise should be held suspect. The bearing engineer hired by Jake and Charles during their development of the ceramic hybrid bearing basically indicated that a roller bearing offered no advantages over a ball bearing design in this application, and could have limitations, which is why they went with the ceramic ball design rather than a roller design.

EPS promotes using a point steel implement to punch a hole of a specific size in the pump end of the shaft to allow oil to flow towards the bearing, and then use an oil pump drive shaft with a grove cut into it for the oil. Jake's work had shown that quite a few shafts did not run true to their center line, so flooding the shaft would worsen the side loading on whatever IMS bearing is at the other end. It is for this exact reason that every IMS Solution installation includes an sealing plug behind the Solution bearing in the shaft to prevent flooding. Early on, those that seriously raced the M96 engine discovered that the stock oil pump drive shaft, the one EPS cuts a grove in, is a weak point and can actually snap before any grove is cut into to it, taking the engine to the grave along with it. Every engine that leaves Jake' shop has a chrome moly steel replacement oil pump drive shaft for exactly this reason.

LN actually makes a roller bearing for the IMS, which is used pretty much exclusively by engine rebuilder RND out of Atlanta. RND also offers LN ceramic hybrid or IMS Solutions if the customer asks for them.

One of the main reasons I shy away from the roller designs is a lack of development information, and a rather limited installed base of successful installation's. Jake and Charles have been very upfront and public about their products, how they developed and tested them, and have open to questions, including how many LN hybrids have failed over the years since introduction. When you and your shop's name is on a retrofit, you cannot accept risks, you need to go with what works time and again. I like to sleep at night, so we only went with what we knew works.

Fair enough. I totally get that, on principle, a plain bearing is far more durable than a ball or roller bearing. So you're saying you won't install LN's other bearings, only the "solution'?

I agree with you that it's a fine product, and there's a solid argument to be made that it's actually the best out there. But when it costs at minimum twice as much as anything else out there, don't you agree that they can offer a much better warranty? I mean, seriously. After all the pre-qualifications, and to only honor the warranty if it's installed by an authorized mechanic, don't you think they should believe in their product enough to offer a lifetime warranty? To me it screams that they don't believe in it, not even as much as you do.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by piper6909

Fair enough. I totally get that, on principle, a plain bearing is far more durable than a ball or roller bearing. So you're saying you won't install LN's other bearings, only the "solution'?

I agree with you that it's a fine product, and there's a solid argument to be made that it's actually the best out there. But when it costs at minimum twice as much as anything else out there, don't you agree that they can offer a much better warranty? I mean, seriously. After all the pre-qualifications, and to only honor the warranty if it's installed by an authorized mechanic, don't you think they should believe in their product enough to offer a lifetime warranty? To me it screams that they don't believe in it, not even as much as you do.

I have installed many of both style LN bearings, and have even uninstalled LN ceramic hybrids to replace them with the IMS Solution (two in my own cars as a matter of fact). When the Solution was first released to the public, it was only available in a single row configuration, the dual row came much later. So at one point in time, if you had a dual row, the ceramic bearing was your only choice unless you sent the car to Jake's shop, as he was the only one installing the dual row Solution before it was release to the general public. The IMS Solution is a better answer, regardless of the price, if you intend to keep the car for a long time, race the car frequently, and particularly if you have a Tiptronic trans, as it never has to be replaced. It is also the only retrofit that can be pulled out of one engine and successfully installed in another with out issues.

[piper6909]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

I have installed many of both style LN bearings, and have even uninstalled LN ceramic hybrids to replace them with the IMS Solution (two in my own cars as a matter of fact). When the Solution was first released to the public, it was only available in a single row configuration, the dual row came much later. So at one point in time, if you had a dual row, the ceramic bearing was your only choice unless you sent the car to Jake's shop, as he was the only one installing the dual row Solution before it was release to the general public. The IMS Solution is a better answer, regardless of the price, if you intend to keep the car for a long time, race the car frequently, and particularly if you have a Tiptronic trans, as it never has to be replaced. It is also the only retrofit that can be pulled out of one engine and successfully installed in another with out issues.

Like I said, I'm sure it's a fine product. My only beef is that if they want to claim it's a 'permanent solution', warranty it as such. They should put their money where their mouth is.

However, as I said before, regardless of the warranty, the product is not for me. It's a solution for only one of a myriad of other issues that can blow up the motor. I consider it insurance. Using homeowner's insurance as an example, I would never buy insurance that would cost me half as much as the house, especially if the policy only covered earthquakes, when you also have risk of fire, vandalism, water, etc.

If I decide to change my IMSB, I'll replace it with an OEM type bearing. I can't justify putting $1850 + labor costs (because doing it myself would void the joke of a warranty) into an engine that I could replace for less than $4000. Now, if I had a built racing engine, then I may reconsider.

And my question was referring to present and future, not the past, when the "solution" wasn't available. So you will not install LN's other IMSB products? Only the "solution'?

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by piper6909

Like I said, I'm sure it's a fine product. My only beef is that if they want to claim it's a 'permanent solution', warranty it as such. They should put their money where their mouth is.

However, as I said before, regardless of the warranty, the product is not for me. It's a solution for only one of a myriad of other issues that can blow up the motor. I consider it insurance. Using homeowner's insurance as an example, I would never buy insurance that would cost me half as much as the house, especially if the policy only covered earthquakes, when you also have risk of fire, vandalism, water, etc.

If I decide to change my IMSB, I'll replace it with an OEM type bearing. I can't justify putting $1850 + labor costs (because doing it myself would void the joke of a warranty) into an engine that I could replace for less than $4000. Now, if I had a built racing engine, then I may reconsider.

And my question was referring to present and future, not the past, when the "solution" wasn't available. So you will not install LN's other IMSB products? Only the "solution'?

No, we still install both style bearings, the hybrid and the Solution.