Gauging Interest: Turbo Kit - 986 Forum - The Community for Porsche Boxster & Cayman Owners

RacebyDesign · 09-13-2006, 06:28 PM

Hello,

We are doing some R&D work on a Boxster turbo kit.

Without going into too much detail, this is a quick summary:

*easy to bolt up turbo kit that will fit the 2.5/2.7 and most likely the S models. (still more R&D to come on fitment)

*turbo will be a quick spooling ball bearing unit, about 6 psi

*should be smog legal in 49 states

*liquid-to-air intercooled

*225-250 whp

Depending on what the community wants, we will tailor the final product:

Eg:

not intercooled -- low psi/no intercooler/lower gains / more affordable
intercooled -- higher psi/liquid intercooled/ high gains/ more costly

David_J · 09-13-2006, 06:43 PM

I say intercooled. If I'm going to spend the money, might as well do it right and get the most power.

Nice to see another Seattle person on here.

-David

RacebyDesign · 09-13-2006, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David_J

I say intercooled. If I'm going to spend the money, might as well do it right and get the most power.

Nice to see another Seattle person on here.

-David

Same to you.

Blake
Race By Design
www.myspace.com/racebydesign

RacebyDesign · 09-16-2006, 04:23 AM

bumping this thread. Should I put it in the performance section?

Would a 12 second Boxster be considered "performance"

Ronzi · 09-16-2006, 07:51 AM

Assuming the kit meets your objectives, I can tell you a few things without a poll :

1. At $500 everybody will want one.

2. At $5,000 a few people will want one.

3. At $10,000 nobody will want one.

RacebyDesign · 09-16-2006, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronzi

Assuming the kit meets your objectives, I can tell you a few things without a poll :

1. At $500 everybody will want one.

2. At $5,000 a few people will want one.

3. At $10,000 nobody will want one.

If you can find me one buyer for a million dollars I will sell 20 more for a dollar per kit.

Thank you for the input. I had the same thing in mind.

It seems there are two kits on the market currently. One utilizing a MP62 Eaton Supercharger (non intercooled), which is pretty small for even a 2.5 4-valve engine. Tuning on this is done via a Split-Second piggyback.

The other uses a Procharger C-1 (non-intercooled) with a reflashed ECU via GIAC software. No doubt its the better choice for upper rpm power.

A properly sized turbo should match the C-1 at the top end and destroy it in the midrange. I cant talk too bad about these units, Procharger's internal oil sump is a great design. I just with they didnt generate so much belt/blower squeal at idle. A great match for my business partner's 1988 5.0 track car...but it's quite embarrassing when showing up at the golf course in a Porsche.

An Eaton, while a great drivable setup, couldnt touch a similar turbo system. With an intercooler in the mix, the intake charge will be lower than the C-1 and MUCH lower than the MP62. I dont hate positive displacement blowers, my business partner's Focus SVT is pushing over 200 very streetable whp with a Jackson Racing MP62.

The thing that is most appealing for the Porsche crowd is that a good exhaust system will cost you a small fortune. When your done with the headers, cats, pipes, and tips you could have bought a full turbo system for another $500-1k.

Please keep up the great feedback. It's invaluable to us.

Blake
Race By Design
www.myspace.com/racebydesign

edevlin · 09-16-2006, 04:36 PM

I would be interested in a modestly priced kit that provided modest performance improvements. That means my vote would be having a unit without an intercooler.

I just posted a note about a dyno run I did with my 2000 2.7L Boxster that has a TTP intake and performance chip. I am making about 198 hp with that rig, but it was expensive, over 2K for the chip and intake and installed. I would like to be able to massage a little more performance out of my engine without breaking the bank.

I also like the response characteristics of a supercharger instead of a turbocharger, but I cannt take the noise of any of the supercharger units I have heard. I have considered getting headers and high-flow cats, but as you say, that is a very expensive way to go to pick up a few hp, if any, just my 2 cents,

Ed

2000 2.7L Boxster
50K

MNBoxster · 09-16-2006, 09:03 PM

Hi,

A turbo kit on the Boxster is fraught with problems, mainly heat. Mid-engine cars don't dissipate heat like a front mount engine does.

Also, why don't you quit trying to hock your kit for free and pay sponsor fees? We have sponsors who pay to display to us and keep this site running. You're freeloading - pay or go away...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

Brucelee · 09-17-2006, 05:24 AM

I have always wondered how the Boxster engines would hold up to a Turbo or SC. As far as I can see, they have not been designed to withstand the extra forces of one.

Personally, I would not chance on my Boxster.

RacebyDesign · 09-19-2006, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MNBoxster

Hi,

A turbo kit on the Boxster is fraught with problems, mainly heat. Mid-engine cars don't dissipate heat like a front mount engine does.

Also, why don't you quit trying to hock your kit for free and pay sponsor fees? We have sponsors who pay to display to us and keep this site running. You're freeloading - pay or go away...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

Good question Jim.

Probably because I dont have a kit yet. Until its available for purchase its vaporware.

Once I have properly gauged the market I will glady pay fees to start downpayments, preorders, or purchases, etc.

It is simply an inquirery. If you would rather I leave and not "impose" on the boxster community with a solution to a problem I could do that as well.

When/if this goes into production (I should know at the end of this week) I will glady pay royalties where due.

I understand your frustration from a viewer stance, but please put yourself in our shoes. If a moderator sees this as a shameless plug for revenue I believe they should shut it down and ban me. Until that point, I just want to see if there is ANY desire for such a kit so as to put forth $30+ thousand in R&D work and preproduction.

Sincerely,

Blake Erven
Race By Design

PS: I drive a MR2 Spyder and with a corolla 1.8 people have made upwards of 240 whp from "kits" with stock bottom ends. If you call running high 12's with cast pathetic pistons a problem I am confused.

PPS: The expense of fabricating a liquid-to-air intercooler is our testement to understanding the situation. As of now this is the ONLY unit in existance that may have an intercooler (let alone a water-to-air).

RandallNeighbour · 09-19-2006, 04:44 PM

Blake, thanks for posting your R&D question on this forum. I do not share Jim's opinion on this issue, and if you were trying to scam some free advertising, the ever-present and vigilant owners of the list would be all over you like white on rice.

I am a potential turbo/sc kit buyer. I'm leaning toward the SC kit put out by Imagine Auto but like the other poster stated, the noise that these bolt-on induction systems make is annoying at the very least, making me rethink the 3.4 liter engine upgrade path as well.

ohioboxster · 09-19-2006, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandallNeighbour

Blake, thanks for posting your R&D question on this forum. I do not share Jim's opinion on this issue, and if you were trying to scam some free advertising, the ever-present and vigilant owners of the list would be all over you like white on rice.

I am a potential turbo/sc kit buyer. I'm leaning toward the SC kit put out by Imagine Auto but like the other poster stated, the noise that these bolt-on induction systems make is annoying at the very least, making me rethink the 3.4 liter engine upgrade path as well.

Randall,
Your killing me, the roots type barely whines which by the way makes me mad. I want more whine. I just love that sound.

RacebyDesign · 09-19-2006, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandallNeighbour

Blake, thanks for posting your R&D question on this forum. I do not share Jim's opinion on this issue, and if you were trying to scam some free advertising, the ever-present and vigilant owners of the list would be all over you like white on rice.

I am a potential turbo/sc kit buyer. I'm leaning toward the SC kit put out by Imagine Auto but like the other poster stated, the noise that these bolt-on induction systems make is annoying at the very least, making me rethink the 3.4 liter engine upgrade path as well.

Randal:

I am a large fan of SC kits as well. I like the fact that you leave the exhaust side alone and dont have to tap the oil pan.

The idea of a turbo unit yields a possibly easier install/upgradability and that is why we are leaning in that direction.

Once we get some preliminary ideas of where this might be going from the rest of our designers, costs, etc we might sway in that direction. One of my questions is how universal our system will be with the other Porsche engines (eg: the 987 3.2 and those looking to do the 3.4 swap). If its a matter of clicking a different exhaust manifold and turbo size that would be very appealing.

I dont believe in putting together hobgoblin turbo kits and if we cant come to a concise vision I will probably push to R&D a Rotrex supercharger kit. Still using low psi, this centrifugal based supercharger is almost dead quiet with only a bit of a chirp from the relief valve between shifts. The nice thing is the self-contained lubrication system and the extreme efficiency chart. These are basically belt driven turbos that spin upwards of 250k rpm.

Still, I wont know until some of the math is done which option makes more sense from an engineering aspect.

Our co-designer is located in Calgary, Alberta. They have asked me a few times if I have a Boxster, or know of one that does to aid in the R&D work. I will check in at the end of the week as this progresses but if anyone is interested in this we can either pay outright or work a very generous donation program for the test subject (aka: nearly free boost).

I will update this as I get them.

My thanks to the Boxster community for at least the attention to the subject. I believe that even throwing ideas around is never in vain.

Keep waxing those S2000's in the meanwhile.

Sincerely,

Blake Erven
Race By Design

PS: I am serious about not generating a dime until I have paid well for the royalties for this and any forum I use.

ohioboxster · 09-19-2006, 05:38 PM

Racebydesign,
My hat goes off to you if you can make a kit thats easy to install. Trust me this is comming from a guy whos' arms look like they fought a weed wacker. Im not sure how you would run the duct work for a turbo but if its anything like the SC kit good luck with the easy part.

MNBoxster · 09-19-2006, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RacebyDesign

Good question Jim.

Probably because I dont have a kit yet. Until its available for purchase its vaporware.

Once I have properly gauged the market I will glady pay fees to start downpayments, preorders, or purchases, etc.

It is simply an inquirery. If you would rather I leave and not "impose" on the boxster community with a solution to a problem I could do that as well.

When/if this goes into production (I should know at the end of this week) I will glady pay royalties where due.

I understand your frustration from a viewer stance, but please put yourself in our shoes. If a moderator sees this as a shameless plug for revenue I believe they should shut it down and ban me. Until that point, I just want to see if there is ANY desire for such a kit so as to put forth $30+ thousand in R&D work and preproduction.

Sincerely,

Blake Erven
Race By Design

PS: I drive a MR2 Spyder and with a corolla 1.8 people have made upwards of 240 whp from "kits" with stock bottom ends. If you call running high 12's with cast pathetic pistons a problem I am confused.

PPS: The expense of fabricating a liquid-to-air intercooler is our testement to understanding the situation. As of now this is the ONLY unit in existance that may have an intercooler (let alone a water-to-air).

Hi,

First, I still think you're selling.

Second, if you're running a forced MR2 w/ cast pistons, you won't be for long. They cannot withstand the added pressure and heat - Lotus found this out after turbocharging the Esprit in 1980 and found the stock cast pistons crowning and melting at about 36k mi. In fact, I have a melted #4 piston from my '85 Esprit as a paperweight. In '86, Lotus went to a forged alloy piston in a matched nikosil liner, problem solved.

Third, I don't know what kind of business model you have, but a $30k R&D expenditure cannot be recovered on a car which has only had 160,000 units produced worldwide. Maybe 20% of all Boxsters are on lease preventing the type of modding you propose. Then, there are many (like me) who don't want to fool with an already iffy engine, are satisfied with it just as it is, or prefer naturally aspirated engines (driveability). There are several countries which won't allow you to import your product or allow an owner to do this type of engine modding. Then, subtract those who have already done a 3.4 swap or an SC mod. I think best case, maybe 1-2% of all models produced, meaning 1600-3200 cars may add forced induction. And, this is best case - it's not like Imagine and other producers are going to just lie down and hand you the market, so I'd guess you might sell 500-750 total units. In order to recover that type of R&D cost (assuming this $30k figure is correct and you're not just posturing) and earn a margin on the sale, you'd have to price these things waay over anything which is currently available. And, I think the Super is much more attractive than the Turbo to most people anyway. I just don't see how you can get the math to work...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

09-19-2006, 06:18 PM

I don't know, but the R&D expenses sound kind of low to me!

$30,000/500 units is only $60 per unit.

Am I missing something?

optimus · 09-19-2006, 06:39 PM

Blake, I applaud your efforts!

I don't agree with Jim either, in fact, I would like to see real vendors on this forum so we can ask questions and get answers from the horses mouth so to speak.

In most of my reading here, I sense that most people are looking to buy something... or looking for advice about buying or where to buy for the boxster... and what boxster owner doesnt want more performance...

So even if you are selling, I see nothing wrong with it... and when it's no longer vaporware, PLEASE! come back and offer us a great deal! or at least ME ;-)

For the record, I would spend $10000 or more... I would be looking at $/HP when deciding which way to go... Gemballa biturbo is the most expensive option I have found, but even at $52000 (500BHP) I am seriously considering it cause it gives me a supersportscar... TTP at around $20000-40000 (330-450hp) is where I am heading... I am reading these forums and researching still and knowing you might have another option is good to know.

regards,

ohioboxster · 09-19-2006, 06:52 PM

Optimus:

You would spend 10k on a Boxster turbo? You interested in any real estate?

MNBoxster · 09-19-2006, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmussatti

I don't know, but the R&D expenses sound kind of low to me!

$30,000/500 units is only $60 per unit.

Am I missing something?

Hi,

Yea, but don't forget, that's on top of all the other costs making up the retail price including production, warehousing, advertising/marketing, and profit. The price will need to reflect this and ammortized over so few units, it's akin to kissing your sister.

I'm sure their business plan forecasts greater units sales than this, but in all my experience with Hotel Franchising, where a business plan was part of the Franchise application, I've noted that they are almost 100% optimistic and rarely perform on par with the proforma.

I'd be surprised if they sell any more than my prediction. Imagine has been out for several months while the Gemballa and Turbo Performance kits have been available for years and I doubt that we have even 1% of the members here (meaning 60 cars) sporting Super or Turbo kits. Since the mod has been available for some time, this cannot be an accident, or lack of availability, rather a choice most owners have made to stay with the naturally aspirated engine, or they would have already performed the mod.

One also needs to appreciate the risks involved in such a mod as well. One can spend thousands of dollars on this modification for relatively little gain, then perhaps thousands more when the engine gets damaged by a poor design or installation. Porsche won't repair under warranty any damage caused by a modification of this type, nor do the kit manufacturers warrant against this type of damage either.

Most experts would agree that any such modification should be accompanied by extensive internal engine modifications as well, such as lower-compression pistons, stronger bearings, more heat-resistant exhaust valves, higher-pressure oil pumps, recalibrated DME, better flowing injectors and fuel pump, and more. None of the kits mentioned here include, or suggest, any of that.

History is filled with guys coming out with better mousetraps, but it's also filled with guys going broke trying to promote better mousetraps, not to mention suckers who fell for the better mousetrap...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

optimus · 09-19-2006, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ohioboxster

Optimus:

You would spend 10k on a Boxster turbo? You interested in any real estate?

yep... actually I am interested in real estate and I have made quite a bit of money out of it and continue to do so...

A boxster is a fantastic car that is simply underpowered... the fact that you can stick 500hp into it and turn it into something that competes with or beats a 911 says a lot for it's engineering.

I also suspect that most people who can afford Gemballa... don't need to save money from advice gained by joining this forum and so we don't see them...

As I said before, people should be discussing $/HP and not just what is affordable...