Did something stupid, please advise

Originally Posted by MNBoxster

Hi,

I'm skeptical that the WW was the cause of your issues. For 9 mos. to pass is too long for an issue to manifest itself and there could be too many intervening possibilities in this rather long time interval.

There is only 1 ingredient in Water Wetter which could pose any kind of issue at all - Tolyltriazole, a PolySiloxane Polymer used for corrosion inhibitance.

The other ingredients are either alcohols (DiIsoPropyl Alcohol Ether and TriIsopropyl Alcohol Diether) used as surfactants, or are additives (Sodium Molybdate) actually used by petroleum refiners in Gasoline and Jet Fuel to reduce gasoline's natural tendency to swell and gel - the exact opposite of what you are inferring.

Tolyltriazole makes up only 1% of WW composition (source: Redline WW MSDS) and if you only added 60ml, that would mean no more than .6ml, a very small amount when stacked against 9 mos. volume of Fuel.

This chemical is not soluable in gasoline, but will precipitate out of solution into a white powder with a Specific Gravity higher than the Fuel meaning that it would drop to the bottom of the Tank. Should it be picked up, as a particulate, it should get trapped by the Fuel Filter and not flow past it - it could in sufficient quantities clog the Filter, but that's about it. The storage and distribution methods for gasoline will introduce a much greater volume of other particulates (oxides, waxes, parafins, etc.) than that over a 9 mo. period.

The total volume of these 4 chemicals does not total 16% of WW. I suspect that either you added considerably more WW than you stated or, more likely, that you got some contaminated Fuel in the interim. The chemistry involved simply does not validate a lot of cause and effect here.

In any event, be sure that you are also replacing the Fuel Filter and flushing the Fuel Tank to insure that no remnants of the suspect material remains. Glad you got it all sorted out...

Happy Motoring!... Jim

Jim, I know you mean well, and feel you have a lot to offer. But it's technical half speak like this that could've saved him $3K. There is no doubt about it in my mind, the water wetter was the culprit. He had the gunk analyzed. What more do you want? Can't you admit you were wrong I mean everyone is from time to time.


Cyanide will kill a human being in the minutest concentrations. The small concentrations point is invalid. 60ml was meant to treat several gallons of water/coolant. WW is obviously soluble in water, as it was engineered as an additive for water and water based coolant. Water and gas don't mix. I saw with my own eyes old gas drained out of a jalopy many many years ago. I shook the hell out of that glass jar too, and still the water stayed on the bottom and coalesced back into larger drops of water. So I can imagine how WW will not dissolve into gas. Also the fuel filter is only effective against particulates in the micron range, where liquids are much smaller.


Gasoline can be a delicate fuel, starting up my lawnmower with 3 month or older gas demonstrates that. Put fresh gas in, it starts right up on the 1st pull. I do realize however that gas can tolerate some moisture, and I also know there are fuel additives such as "Heet" designed to absorb excess moisture. How much moisture can be miscible I don't know.


I'm no chemist, and it's too bad none were available on this forum. It wouldn've been cheap to contact Redline or Porsche and get some REAL expert advice. Instead, threpwood was dissuaded from that course, which is a shame.

[MNBoxster]

Hi,

@boxsterz - As you state, you are no Chemist. It's technical half speak like this that can contribute to misinformation as well as discreditation of an otherwise sound piece of advice.

Not wanting to start a Flame War, I am also not a Chemist, but I do hold a BS in Material Science and minored in Organic Chemistry (essentially a pre-requisite) from a Big 10 university which ranks very high nationally in both chemistry and materials science.

The chemicals I listed and their properties are correct. They are not made up, but reported by Redline in it's required MSDS publication which I researched before offering my initial advise to the lister.

These are not rare chemicals at all, but well known and used for a variety of purposes. The only one which would not remain in a liquid state when mixed with gasoline is Tolyltriazole, which is also used in the manufacture of pharmaceuticals, fertilizers, and any number of other products. All other ingredients would have flowed through the injectors and been combusted in the cylinder along with the fuel, and within that specific volume of fuel which was contaminated, there would have been no residual effects. These other chemicals are not altered in the presence of gasoline and all burn well within the combustion temperatures of gasoline.

The Tolyltriazole would not, it would precipitate out of solution as a white powder and drop to the bottom of the Tank as it is heavier than gasoline. Interestingly, it is Blue upon manufacture, not Red as was the color of the gel found by the mechanic.

You see cause and effect while admittedly knowing nothing about the interaction of these chemicals with other substances, not a very sound conclusion, and seemingly taking a jab at those who at least stepped forward, did some research, and replied to the lister's request - seems you've been absent from this thread up to that point. You are merely looking at the linearity of one event preceeding the other. That has the same validity as saying that Rain caused the issue because the car was rained on before the engine started acting up.

My knowledge of these chemicals and their interactions says this incident was not the culprit, therefore, something else must be responsible. A likely possibility, though certainly not the only one, is that in the lengthy interim (in the same 9 mos. I added more than 93 gal. of fuel to my car which is solely used for occaisional pleasure driving), something else was introduced into the Fuel supply causing the issue such as contaminated fuel, or even as the lister eluded a mischievous substance was introduced (perhaps a Red Gummy Bear - just as possible). But it's unlikely that the WW was the cause.

You have offered no proof, other than your belief that the WW was the culprit, along with some anecdote about Fresh Gas being better than Stale Gas to make, or solidify, whatever case you're trying to make, now that's technical half speak.

I am fully prepared to admit being wrong, as I have done often in the past, if someone can show that to be the case.

With repsect to the Lister, I did not shoot from the hip with my initial reply but researched his query pretty thoroughly before responding. I would never intentionally give someone harmful advice or offer any whatever if I didn't feel I knew what I was talking about (ever casually notice how many threads I do not reply to? This is often the reason why).

And, it wasn't me who mistakenly added the questionable substance to begin with, or the one who chose a path of action. So don't try and infer that I am somehow responsible for all this because I am simply not.

People make their own choices, whether it is to choose or to ignore any particular advice offered here, by anyone. To try and condemn advice here is to make people ignore sound advice and cause those knowledgeable people to shrink from giving it. Then we're just talking about Headlight mods and Wheel colors and many owners would not like to see the forum move to that direction.

I won't discuss this further on open forum with you as you seem intent on being divisive and simply use it as a soapbox for whatever vindictiveness you harbor toward me or whatever. If you want to PM me, I'll reply as I see fit, but I won't be party to a lynch mob no matter how badly you may wish to organize one. I welcome other knowledgeable replies as well...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

@ MNBoxster,


I've taken my share of undergrad engineering chem also, not to your extent, however, I know better than to assert a finding without empirical evidence. That burden of proof, was furnished by a 3rd party lab which analysed the susbstance and found independently that the jelly is/was most likely a coolant additive.


I'm not sure how you MISSED that in your retort


I'm don't know if they did a mass spectrometry on the jelly or not, but I do believe they're more thorough and reliable than your +30yr academic record and memory. I'm basing the crux of my belief upon the lab's conlusion. My anecdotal experience was ment to support 2 beliefs: 1) that the fuel filter would NOT trap the WW, which you state "should". 2) I would also posit that WW like water, will not readily dissolve into gas.



I harbor no ill feelings towards you, and hey I know what a lynch mob feels like here. I am only after the truth. To that end, I do believe an experiment would settle this, as the saying goes, "an experiment is worth a thousand experts..." In this case it will suffice for "would be" experts which I do not claim to be


It would be easy enough to replicate. We get some gas, put the proportionate WW into it, and see if it dissolves into the gas and if it can be trapped partially or not by a filter as you assert, OR if it can pass through a filter, and ultimately jell within 9 mo. I realize we cannot duplicate everything, but enough to draw a workable and probable conclusion. Are you willing to put your "knowledge" to the test?



BTW, I don't hold you reponsible for someone elses actions. However, I do hold you or anyone else to giving bad advice and not owning it, if it's revealed as such. I do not think it was sound advice to dissuade and summarily dismiss getting a second opinion from more informed sources. It would've been a cheap and easy double check. But I gather since your explanation reads good, the lister took it as truth. That much I have issue with. I want to make clear, I do not want to steal your thunder, steal your wife, steal your car, steal your money, wish you ill will, or any such thing. I actually appreciate your input on average, I only wish that you'd give even better advice

[threpwood]

Yea let's keep the thread positive as I would hate if this thread turned into canada-flaming cartagena

I haven't actually looked at the test result yet because the result is being sent back to me. The lab tech (chemist) said that their conclusion (coolant additive, they didn't mention WW) was drawn based on the graphs analysis, so I bet the analysis was a spectroscopy which means there should be other weird chemicals other than ones from the WW.

I should have received the result next week. I will scan and post it here so we can all look at it and see if we can analyze it in more detail

Please note that I occasionally used redline fuel injector cleaner, which has a RED color as well...so this could possibly be the culprint. I don't use this anymore though, as I avoid adding anything to the gas from now on.

Sounds good. I see no reason to make this private as the results benefit all car owners, not just boxsters. I repeat that I'm not on some MNBoxster witch hunt, so there is no reason for Jim to shy away. This is a search for the truth. Period.


Funny if it was the injector cleaner, as it's supposed to UN-clogg injectors! It's possible that a chemical reaction between the injector cleaner AND the WW made the jelly. Again, I'm no chemist, but it would be easy enough to test empirically and far more revealing than some paper exercise.


We'll know more when the test results are in. Hopefully Jim will chime in on that too.


Please do post the chart analysis so everyone knows what's up.

Originally Posted by threpwood

Yea let's keep the thread positive as I would hate if this thread turned into canada-flaming cartagena

I haven't actually looked at the test result yet because the result is being sent back to me. The lab tech (chemist) said that their conclusion (coolant additive, they didn't mention WW) was drawn based on the graphs analysis, so I bet the analysis was a spectroscopy which means there should be other weird chemicals other than ones from the WW.

I should have received the result next week. I will scan and post it here so we can all look at it and see if we can analyze it in more detail

Please note that I occasionally used redline fuel injector cleaner, which has a RED color as well...so this could possibly be the culprint. I don't use this anymore though, as I avoid adding anything to the gas from now on.

[prOk]

Biggest lesson of all... don't rely on an internet message board to fix your 60k car. Call a qualified mechanic or the manufacturer of the substance that causes your question in the first place. I'm sure that a simple call to the WW manufacturer could have avoided this.