IMS tell tale

[That986]

Originally Posted by geraintthomas

Oh for f**k sake.

It's unbelievable how much this whole IMS issue has been and still is continuing to be blown out of proportion. Every time I see a thread I think "Oh for god sake here we go again". Yes the bearings have a design flaw, yes there's been people who have had them fail, but they're more prone to failing on cars that aren't being driven where the bearing isn't lubricated as often as it should be, causing it to dry up, resulting in cracked seals, leaking its grease, to which it heats up and fails.

Yes Porsche should have been a bit smarter about the design but it's seriously not as bad as everyone says it is. I've seen a few people with over 200,000 miles on theirs (one with 300,000) that didn't even know what an IMS bearing was. Yes IMS bearings have failed, but the fact of the matter is, no matter how much everyone harps on about it, in comparison to the amount of engines with this bearing, the failures are rare.

It's like plane crashes - you only hear about them as they rarely happen and people end up being scared of flying, where as no one gives a crap about the amount of planes that don't have a single problem day in day out.

More importantly, as well as this, there are multiple people on here who have changed their bearing, and the new one has failed on them. So what do you do?

As said, if there are no oil leaks, no signs of wear and the oil filter is completely clean, drive it and enjoy it, but don't garage queen it. Make sure you drive it often and use the rev range, which is key to having no problems in these cars. I think everyone has given him all the info he needs now, so he can either go and change it, or he can just drive the car.

Shall we drop this damn topic again? The amount of threads on this is crazy and every question about it has been answered over and over and over again and it's getting embarrassing.

I'm in total agreement, get out and drive it. Love the plane analogy and if you've ever stood at Heathrow and watched the amount of traffic in and out of there it boggles the mind. I can also guarantee there a lot of people out there with older cars that haven't even heard of an IMS or care about it that just drive their car day in, day out.

Nobody is saying the failures aren't there (they obviously are) but I would put money on there being another similarity running between all the failures i.e: not warmed up before revving the engine, only driven very occasionally, long interval oil changes.... I'm obviously guessing at things here but to just blanket say "they just fail and it's a when not if" seems a bit far fetched to me.

[geraintthomas]

Originally Posted by That986

...but to just blanket say "they just fail and it's a when not if" seems a bit far fetched to me.

Absolutely spot on.

[algiorda]

I'd love to drop the topic, but your raised some points that need discussion. LOL

As stated, the failure rates for certain years and bearing types is much higher than anyone really knows. I based my decision to repair on the feedback from the pros who are in the industry; 2 or 3 indy's, Woody, Jake, Pedro, etc.

For my model year 2004 BSSE, the failure rate is reputed to be about 30%! Geez, that is not in the same league as a plane crash or a shark bite, whatever that number is. That really get's your attention and we really owe it to new owners of the Box to let them know the true picture. Porsche certainly is not.

[That986]

Originally Posted by algiorda

I'd love to drop the topic, but your raised some points that need discussion. LOL

As stated, the failure rates for certain years and bearing types is much higher than anyone really knows. I based my decision to repair on the feedback from the pros who are in the industry; 2 or 3 indy's, Woody, Jake, Pedro, etc.

For my model year 2004 BSSE, the failure rate is reputed to be about 30%! Geez, that is not in the same league as a plane crash or a shark bite, whatever that number is. That really get's your attention and we really owe it to new owners of the Box to let them know the true picture. Porsche certainly is not.

So you're going to tell me that there's been around 50,000 IMS failures, that's based on a complete production run of around 164,000.

[particlewave]

Not even close to 30%. Even 8% for single row cars seems high.

In my experience, you are much more likely to total your car in an accident. Don't loose any sleep over it.

[Dmitry at Pelican Parts]

Guys - please keep it civil and stay on topic. No reason to get heated in the forums; we're all here for the same reason.

[njbray]

Originally Posted by That986

Links please. I am genuinely interested because in the UK we don't have half the paranoia you guys have over this.

I totally agree! I have met so many owners who don't even know about the IMS issue.
Maybe owners in UK & Europe put more miles on their cars & most are daily drivers.
Many people in California are horrified when I tell them of all the cars in UK that are left outside in all weather, driven in rain & snow!

[algiorda]

And that is the problem, 1%, 10% 30%, who knows. Based on the lack of adequate statistics, the only course of action is to reduce the risk no matter how risky and just get it done. It's all speculation at this point. I am not a river gambler, I'd rather spend $3,000 than $10,000.

[mikefocke]

Where is some of this data coming from?

Settlement Information

This document in PDF form

Case 2:11-cv-09405-CAS-FFM Document 56-2 Filed 12/23/13 Page 5 of 44 Page ID #:735

Keep in mind that this document is ~4 years old and the figures therein only represent the claims Porsche paid. I don't see the 1% and 8% figures on a quick scan, I'll let you all find them.

If you aren't a lawyer, don't read these documents as most of them are just a justification for lawyers fees.

[algiorda]

Well, if you just look at the numbers on this board, for instance, the results show 10% failure rate:

http://986forum.com/forums/performance-technical-chat/18280-poll-ims-related-engine-failure.html

[Anker]

Its all hearsay with no real statistics. Complete waste of time to argue this.

For one, the failure rate most likely falls with mileage, but there's no data for or against this.

Each of us has to make a personal decision. Mine was to have a DOF IMS solution.

[That986]

Originally Posted by algiorda

Well, if you just look at the numbers on this board, for instance, the results show 10% failure rate:

http://986forum.com/forums/performance-technical-chat/18280-poll-ims-related-engine-failure.html

That poll shows 6 failures, i've not a clue how many members are in this forum but that doesn't equal 10% unless there's only 60 members.

So really it does still come back to hearsay which is why Porsche more than likely stopped talking about it.

My thoughts: stop hyping this up beyond what it really is (a small percentage of failures), offer the solutions and let people take their choice because the lack of real stats and figures says everything. To base a decision on whether to buy a car based on whether the IMS bearing has been changed or not to me is crazy as it might be the most cared for car you've just passed on. And how do we know that these "upgrades" really are that? On one thread i saw a choice of replacement bearings with one having a lifetime of 50000 miles, why is there a choice when really you just want one bulletproof solution? That just sounds like marketing to me and how do they know it lasts 50000 miles, has it been tested to that and then exploded?
Give people the stats and let them make their mind up, let's get past the paranoia.

[geraintthomas]

Originally Posted by That986

My thoughts: stop hyping this up

Agree'd.

Maybe we should have a sticky that says "Concerned about IMS? Read this", and to just state all of the facts so that the owner can make up their own minds. It's ridiculous the amount of over-hyped threads on this.

Fact of the matter is this:

- It's extremely rare, but it can happen. So can a car accident.
- It'll happen more on cars that are rarely driven, than cars that are, due to the bearing being lubricated more.
- There are sometimes tell tale signs; oil leaks and metal flakes in the oil filter
- If you do have signs, check/replace the bearing.
- If you don't have any signs and it's driven often, just drive the car and enjoy it.
- If you don't have any signs but it's rarely driven, consider a replacement only by looking at the above facts and making your own mind up, as replacement IMS's have also been known to fail.

There's no 'should' or 'shouldn't', there's just the facts, and a decision to be made by the owner, both of which are completely justified.

You can't say someone is wrong for not changing the bearing as, like said, replacement ones have been known to fail and it's a rare thing to happen anyway. You also can't say someone is wrong for replacing it as they may have a car that's rarely driven and want a fresh new bearing.

Can we please consider some sort of sticky to stop the 100,000,000 over-hyped threads on the same subject?

[algiorda]

Originally Posted by That986

That poll shows 6 failures, i've not a clue how many members are in this forum but that doesn't equal 10% unless there's only 60 members.

So really it does still come back to hearsay which is why Porsche more than likely stopped talking about it.

My thoughts: stop hyping this up beyond what it really is (a small percentage of failures), offer the solutions and let people take their choice because the lack of real stats and figures says everything. To base a decision on whether to buy a car based on whether the IMS bearing has been changed or not to me is crazy as it might be the most cared for car you've just passed on. And how do we know that these "upgrades" really are that? On one thread i saw a choice of replacement bearings with one having a lifetime of 50000 miles, why is there a choice when really you just want one bulletproof solution? That just sounds like marketing to me and how do they know it lasts 50000 miles, has it been tested to that and then exploded?
Give people the stats and let them make their mind up, let's get past the paranoia.

It's basic statistics; the respondents (universe) totaled 60 and there were 6 failures. That is 10%. To be more accurate, you would need EVERONE on this board to respond to the poll. Or better yet, Every Porsche 986 owner to respond. That would get an accurate accounting.

Perhaps we should spin up a website for all 986 owners to register their VIN, answer YES or NO as IMS failure, IMS Replacement, or No action. Then we would have a true accounting.

But to turn a blind eye on this problem and do nothing is inadvisable. When I had my IMS pulled, it had play in it. It didn't fail, but it was trending failure.

[That986]

Originally Posted by algiorda

It's basic statistics; the respondents (universe) totaled 60 and there were 6 failures. That is 10%. To be more accurate, you would need EVERONE on this board to respond to the poll. Or better yet, Every Porsche 986 owner to respond. That would get an accurate accounting.

Perhaps we should spin up a website for all 986 owners to register their VIN, answer YES or NO as IMS failure, IMS Replacement, or No action. Then we would have a true accounting.

But to turn a blind eye on this problem and do nothing is inadvisable. When I had my IMS pulled, it had play in it. It didn't fail, but it was trending failure.

I think you should do exactly that, then at least we would get a true picture and not some half-baked stats we seem to have now.

Nobody is turning a blind eye but what I am saying is give people the FACTS and not hearsay and let people make the choice. As you said your bearing had play in it when it was pulled but hadn't actually failed. Last time I looked most bearings have an amount of play in them and if they didn't they wouldn't be a bearing, but i can bet when it was situated in your engine it wouldn't have had as much play as when it was in the mechanics hand. It's a bit like a headset bearing for a BMX, on their own outside the bike they're pretty poor but once installed and tightened to spec they can take forces that you can't comprehend and do it time after time.

I still think (and you don't have to agree) that there is a lot of hype and scaremongering going on over what is in reality a very small percentage of failures. Look after your car, change the oil regular and check the filter for any signs of metal but most of all get out there and drive it.

I know one thing for sure and that is if someone dropped on here looking for a car and info on it they would run away scared after reading half the threads on here thinking they would be buying a hand grenade unless they spent a huge chunk of money on something that just might not need doing. The IMS thing is well documented, it doesn't need to be mentioned on every thread.

[Disaster]

Originally Posted by geraintthomas

Fact of the matter is this:

- It's extremely rare, but it can happen. So can a car accident.

No one in the automotive business considers a failure rate above 1% to be rare. 10% is catastrophic.

Originally Posted by geraintthomas

- It'll happen more on cars that are rarely driven, than cars that are, due to the bearing being lubricated more.

This is true with a caveat...a big one. Most people don't know the car's history and many of these cars sat for periods in their lives so damage might have already occurred and be a ticking time bomb. Once the surface starts spalling it is just a matter of time. Driving it more will shorten the time to total failure.

Originally Posted by geraintthomas

- There are sometimes tell tale signs; oil leaks and metal flakes in the oil filter

I'd recommend oil checks instead. These are more reliable. Blackstone provides the metal content in oil when you can't even see it.

[Cbonilla]

Originally Posted by Anker

For one, the failure rate most likely falls with mileage, but there's no data for or against

If there's no data how can you state that the failure rate likely falls with mileage? Asked by a guy that had the IMS fail on my 2003 986 S at 100k miles?

Carlos

[thom4782]

@ all: Paragraph 16 in the PDF document referred to by Mike says Porsche has paid IMS single row warranty or goodwill claims on 4% to 8% of single row bearing cars in the US. As such, one can consider this lower bound numbers because they do not include failures rejected by Porsche, repaired by non-Porsche shops, or cars simply written off.

@Ankur - what basis do you have to suggest that failures decrease with mileage. It can't possibly be that the bearing becomes stronger with age. More likely, this phenomena simply reflects the fact that IMS seals degrade more when cars spend a lot of time parked thus leading to lubrication issues sooner and subsequent failures at lower miles