Thinking of buying a 97 Boxster - Engine Failure Question

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by denverpete

...As to the RMS - I don't think mileage has much to do with it. It seems like a gremlin that just pokes it's nasty little German head up randomly....

Hi,

All good points, but as far as RMS goes, the majority which fail prematurely do so under 30k mi., usually under 24k mi. There have been failures at higher mileages, but these are rare. So much so, that there well may be other issues at play in these instances.

But, the Main Seal on any car is a wear item. The Front and Rear Seals on your Chevy Smallblock or Honda 4 will eventually wear out.

These seals are essentially a rubber (sometimes synthetic, leather or cardboard depending on the car) lip which is precision engineered to rub (read direct contact) against the circumference of the crankshaft as it spins, this is what provides the seal and keeps the Oil in. Think of it as similar to a rubber doughnut with a shaft running through the middle which presses against the doughnut around it's whole inside diameter.

The crankshaft theoretically spins on a stable axis, but eventually, due to wear in the bearing shells, it's axis changes slightly (or it will wobble slightly) and it will exert more pressure, and therefore wear, to one part of the seal and away from the opposite part. When this happens, the seal is compromised and the seal leaks.

One of the keys to a long-lived seal is to have it centered on the Crankshaft's spin axis, and this is where Porsche has had some difficulty. The M96 engine block halves are cast using a proprietary casting method developed by, and adopted from, Audi. The advantage of this type of casting theoretically removes any need for post- cast machining the block to center bore the Crankshaft opening. This means less $$ to produce the engine and more profit for the manufacturer. But, it also eliminates the possibility of post-machining of the Block halves because no excess material is present, as in conventional casting, to machine away; this is why a bad block cannot be saved.

But, the tolerances are not as good as if the block were precision center-bored. If the block is really off the seal will not center-align with the spin axis of the Crankshaft (Porsche measures the block on failed RMS to determine whether to refit a seal or the engine entirely) . The original Seals were not able to tolerate much variance by flexing sufficiently to maintain a proper seal. The redesigned seals and those from the Cayenne block, do seem to be more flexible and capable of accomodating greater variances better than the original seal. This is why for many, it's a one-time repair. But, for others, the variance is too great and it will consistently fail or require engine replacement. Of course, should a Crankshaft be inaccurately machined and slip through Quality Control, it too would cause a premature failure of the seal, but these are probably as rare as the same occurance in a Honda. Also, should there be a burr on the Crankshaft, this too can tear the seal and cause it to fail. The seal will also sometimes scar the Crankshaft by wearing a groove into it. The original seal is set 11mm deep into the Block, but Porsche recommends seating a replacement seal 13mm deep. This way, it comes into contact with a fresh, smooth part of the Crankshaft.

Also, each of the materials used in making the seal have their own lifespan. Rubber and other materials harden with time and heat cycling and the seal becomes less pliable. At this point, it is less able to endure the stress placed on it and it can wear or crack, again loosing it's integrity and a leak develops. Due to greater manufacturing tolerances and better materials, these seals now last a very long time, somewhere in the neighborhood of 150k-250k mi., but still not forever...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[denverpete]

Yeah, that's pretty much what I meant to say. I would have gone into much deeper detail of course but I'm a man of few wo

[splatch]

Jim, Your post completely made my day. Thank you for the in depth explanation, detail, and for actually answering my question! Hopefully the car will hold out for at least a little while.

denverpete, The car is a 97 Guards Red on Black with about 100k on it. The top was already replaced. It also has several other parts that have been replaced and the car has been maintained well. It will be traded in next week, and I have the opportunity to buy it for $11k.

From what I've gathered, late model 98 and 99 MY Boxsters have sleeve problems. I also don't know if the intermediate shaft problem is related to the RMS issue or not.. I am also very concerned about that. Jim, if you explained it in your post, I apologize. It's going to take a couple readings for me to make sure I understand everything you said in detail.

[denverpete]

Originally Posted by splatch

...denverpete, The car is a 97 Guards Red on Black with about 100k on it. The top was already replaced. It also has several other parts that have been replaced and the car has been maintained well. It will be traded in next week, and I have the opportunity to buy it for $11k....

Well, damn. Maybe there is a price!

The intermediate shaft may or may not be related to RMS - but if it was going to happen it probably would have happened. Most see this problem under 20k miles (see also: ME). Also note that like the sleeve thing, the intermediate shaft has become the "catch all" for engine failure. That's not to say it couldn't fail - but if it does it will probably be for reasons any engine might fail at 100k plus miles.

Sounds like a good deal - get a PPI. This won't preclude a future RMS or engine failure but will put your mind at ease for other possible issues.

Then - enjoy your ride! Good Luck and post pictures after you buy it!

[NickCats]

Originally Posted by MNBoxster

All good points, but as far as RMS goes, the majority which fail prematurely do so under 30k mi., usually under 24k mi. There have been failures at higher mileages, but these are rare. So much so, that there well may be other issues at play in these instances.

Jim,

Great info. Question for you, I recently brought my 99 Box in for the 30k. Dealer said that I have a very minor leak in the RMS but not to worry about it at this time but to keep that in mind. Garage floor has been clean with no evidence of leaking fluids. Due to the 30k miles, am I past the point of RMS "failure" though I may still have problems in the future ?

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by NickCats

Jim,

Great info. Question for you, I recently brought my 99 Box in for the 30k. Dealer said that I have a very minor leak in the RMS but not to worry about it at this time but to keep that in mind. Garage floor has been clean with no evidence of leaking fluids. Due to the 30k miles, am I past the point of RMS "failure" though I may still have problems in the future ?

Hi,

Actually, no. You already have RMS failure, any leak, even a slight one, is a failure of the seal. This failure is most often progressive. How long you have until it gets much worse, no one can say, but it's never gonna stay static or get better - it will get worse and there's nothing you can do to mitigate the timeline.

That said, plan a budget now so you don't get smacked in the face with it when you least expect it. Also, I would try to ammortize the costs by factoring in a Clutch or Flywheel at the same time as the labor should be the same and only add a couple hundred to the existing cost. Even if you don't actually need it, it's better to throw away $150 worth of unused Clutch than to fork out another $600 in a year or so when the existing clutch finally wears out. That way, you'll get the most for your money. Hope this helps...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[NickCats]

Jim,

Thanks for the info ! That's what I thought, but I was hoping I was wrong.

Dealer quoted $951 for the RMS, so I have about a grand sitting in a slush fund waiting...

How will I know when it is time to do the RMS ?

Thanks again,

Nick

http://986forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6218

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by NickCats

Jim,

Thanks for the info ! That's what I thought, but I was hoping I was wrong.

Dealer quoted $951 for the RMS, so I have about a grand sitting in a slush fund waiting...

How will I know when it is time to do the RMS ?

Thanks again,

Nick

http://986forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6218

Hi,

Well, you can change it at any time, but at some point, the leak will get worse, spots on the floor, etc. You don't want to lose the seal completely while the car is running because you run the risk of ruining the motor. Keep an eye on the Garage floor and also on the dipstick (don't trust the digi-gauge) when you're on the road.

Also, as I mentioned, do the clutch/flywheel at the same time. Ask for separate quotes on each repair and then for the two combined. My local dealer will do them all for $60 more than the clutch alone + Parts, and the $60 is really pure profit as the seal takes all of 5-10 min. for an experienced mechanic who already has the motor open.

The RMS procedure is really simple, once you've got everything else out of the way. Much simpler in fact than the RMS on my Lotus. On the Lotus, it is a negative fit seal which means that you have to take the rear cover off and pry out the old seal, then heat the cover in an oven to 300° to expand it and then insert the new seal - the cover cools/contracts around it to make a seal - lots more work, but then again, they don't fail either... Hope this helps...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[NickCats]

Thanks again, Jim. I will keep a close eye on the garage floor and the dipstick.

I will seriously consider your clutch / flywheel suggestion. Makes sense...

Post pictures of the Lotus sometime. I would love to see it !

Thanks again,

Nick

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by NickCats

Thanks again, Jim. I will keep a close eye on the garage floor and the dipstick.

I will seriously consider your clutch / flywheel suggestion. Makes sense...

Post pictures of the Lotus sometime. I would love to see it !

Thanks again,

Nick

Hi,

Here you go, it's not the best pic, but it's all I have loaded on my comp right now. This car took Best in Show in the Concours d' Elegance at the 2002 Lotus Owners Gathering - nat'l. Lotus convention. I've had it in nine shows and it's taken 1st every time - no garage queen though, I track this car at least 3 times a year...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[ct_boxster]

Still runs and looks showroom new. The prior owner had all records and was very well taken care of. Basically had done all maintenance for me. New shocks/struts, new top/transmission, new belts, new tires.
If anything would have gone wrong it would have by now.

[NickCats]

Cool car, Jim ! Must be a blast to drive !

Thanks for the pic...

Nick

[chiefsalami]

Great information here, guys. I just took my 2002 S in for a PPI today at Sunset Imports (I believe one of your sponsors), and picked it up a few minutes ago. My car also has a leaking RMS and they also stated the clutch felt too stiff, which indicates it needs replacing as well. To me, the clutch feels pretty typical Porsche (of course, I don't have enough of a base for comparison like the techs do). I still have plenty of free travel and it seems to engage just fine, though.

On the phone, they said the job to replace the seal, clutch, and flywheel would run about $3000. That sounds pretty high to me though, given that just the parts alone add up to about $1300.

Does this seem reasonable, or should all of this be less money?

[Brucelee]

Originally Posted by chiefsalami

Great information here, guys. I just took my 2002 S in for a PPI today at Sunset Imports (I believe one of your sponsors), and picked it up a few minutes ago. My car also has a leaking RMS and they also stated the clutch felt too stiff, which indicates it needs replacing as well. To me, the clutch feels pretty typical Porsche (of course, I don't have enough of a base for comparison like the techs do). I still have plenty of free travel and it seems to engage just fine, though.

On the phone, they said the job to replace the seal, clutch, and flywheel would run about $3000. That sounds pretty high to me though, given that just the parts alone add up to about $1300.

Does this seem reasonable, or should all of this be less money?

Yes, the stiff clutch IS a symptom on these cars. I would assume it was about to be toast.

$3K sounds as bit high but if this is a PPI, I would assume that to be the number and act accordingly.

[NickCats]

Originally Posted by chiefsalami

Great information here, guys. I just took my 2002 S in for a PPI today at Sunset Imports (I believe one of your sponsors), and picked it up a few minutes ago. My car also has a leaking RMS and they also stated the clutch felt too stiff, which indicates it needs replacing as well. To me, the clutch feels pretty typical Porsche (of course, I don't have enough of a base for comparison like the techs do). I still have plenty of free travel and it seems to engage just fine, though.

On the phone, they said the job to replace the seal, clutch, and flywheel would run about $3000. That sounds pretty high to me though, given that just the parts alone add up to about $1300.

Does this seem reasonable, or should all of this be less money?

When I brought my Box in for the 30k I found out I have a minor leak in the RMS. Dealer quoted $951. So $3000 for the RMS, clutch, and flywheel sounds about right.

Hope this helps...

Nick

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by NickCats

When I brought my Box in for the 30k I found out I have a minor leak in the RMS. Dealer quoted $951. So $3000 for the RMS, clutch, and flywheel sounds about right.

Hope this helps...

Nick

Hi,

That's an awful quote! The Dealer is charging you to do both jobs separately, not combined. Yet, about 50% of the procedure is the same for each.

A local dealer charges $60(+parts) more to do the RMS when you have the clutch/flywheel done, and that's still charging an hour extra labor when it's a 5-10 min. job once the motor is opened up for the Clutch. That puts it around $2300.

It's unconscionable that so many Dealerships are such profiteers. This is something PCNA should look into. There should not be such varying prices for the same work. It's a racket pure and simple...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99