A place for my piece

[Jamesp]

I'd say the Houston resident was safer with the armed robber dead in his driveway than he was when being threatened with a weapon. It's kind of hard to argue the opposite of that.

[Giller]

Originally Posted by Jamesp

I'd say the Houston resident was safer with the armed robber dead in his driveway than he was when being threatened with a weapon. It's kind of hard to argue the opposite of that.

And that's a great single example - and I'm sure there are a ton more. The challenge is, for every one like this, there are dozens of examples where the good guy didn't fare so well. Or where a family member was shot and killed accidentally. Or a stray bullet took out a bystander. There are hundreds of those every year. You can't cherry pick your examples and ignore the multitude of evidence against this.

There are far too many unstable people out there and getting a CC license is actually fairly simple in many states. There are tons of stories where CC people used their weapons in non-life threatening situations. Many have killed loved ones and coworkers.

Again, argue it's your right all you like - but if you want to argue FACTS - sorry, it can't be done.

[thstone]

Originally Posted by Giller

Again, argue it's your right all you like - but if you want to argue FACTS - sorry, it can't be done.

Here is the best data that I could find with references to the author of the actual study;

• There are "no statistically discernible relationship between concealed carry policies and the public’s perceptions of the number of firearm carriers." (Fortunato, 2015)
• "No support to the hypothesis that shall-issue laws have beneficial effects in reducing murder rates" (Grambsch, 2012)
• At the city level, there is "no evidence that [right-to-carry] laws reduce or increase rates of violent crime" (Kovandzic, Marvell and Vieraitis, 2005)
• "No statistically significant association exists between changes in concealed weapon laws and state homicide rates" (Hepburn, Miller, Azrael and Hemenway, 2004)

Of course, people can pick and choose from the multitude of studies that have been published. There are some that say that armed citizens are safer and that crime rates are reduced and there are other studies saying the exact opposite - if you want to cite a couple of studies reflecting/confirming your own personal opinion, its easy to do.

But the common denominator that I found seems to be that allowing concealed carry is largely irrelevant to the bigger picture of overall crime rates. The few people that are saved by having a gun is generally offset by a few accidents and everyone else continues to kill each other at the same rate whether concealed carry exists or not. Net change = 0.

This brings us right back to where we started; Owning and/or carrying a gun is a right and a personal decision. Choose wisely.

[Jamesp]

Originally Posted by Giller

And that's a great single example - and I'm sure there are a ton more. The challenge is, for every one like this, there are dozens of examples where the good guy didn't fare so well. Or where a family member was shot and killed accidentally. Or a stray bullet took out a bystander. There are hundreds of those every year. You can't cherry pick your examples and ignore the multitude of evidence against this.

There are far too many unstable people out there and getting a CC license is actually fairly simple in many states. There are tons of stories where CC people used their weapons in non-life threatening situations. Many have killed loved ones and coworkers.

Again, argue it's your right all you like - but if you want to argue FACTS - sorry, it can't be done.

Giller,
I'm sure you're a nice person, and meeting you in person would be a pleasure as it would be with most of the forum because we all share an enthusiasm for the Boxster. I wasn't going to post on this thread except to offer a solution to the original question, but there goes that idea. I hope you will read your post and see the irony that though you talk about facts, even yelling it in full caps, your post hasn't any. I was going to ask you to post some facts, but trolling for them would be a burden, and as the links you posted previously clearly had a hard core anti gun bias I figured I'd go find some unbiased facts and post them, here goes.

Now I'm in Texas, the most rootinist tootinist red neck hey "y'all watch this!" uneducated cow poke state in existence. Not a day goes by that some west Texas inbred imbecile goes by in his pickup truck clinging to his bible whooping and hollering while carelessly emptying his six shooter into the air.

All that that having been said to prove the "street cred" I have from living in a gun infested environment.

Texas gun laws are some of the most forgiving in the nation. Not only can you carry your gun in your car without a permit (provided you are allowed to carry at all - no felonies, class a misdomeanors, or unpaid child support, etc.), but you can pack on a golf cart or a boat! Provided it's concealed. As of January 1st if you have a CHL you can strap a couple to your hips and do your best Yosemite Sam impersonation - Yee Haw!!!

You claim to rely on facts. You imply your opinions are formed on them so let's look at the facts of Texas CHL crime rates versus the general population. This comes from the Texas Department of Public Safety Regulatory Services Division. I'm thinking they are an unbiased database. These are for the most part violent crimes. I'll give you the punch line (or facts if you prefer). CHL holders, for the most part, commit less than one percent of violent crimes compared to the general population without a CHL, in many cases zero percent. Surprised? You should be based on your previous posts.

Here are some juicy ones that seem to be worth focusing on for 2014: Assault with a deadly weapon 0.19%, Kidnapping 0.0%, Assault on a family member 0.13%, Deadly conduct discharging a firearm 0.57%, Murder 1.3%, Manslaughter 2.7%

And the list goes on for other crimes and years with similar noise levels - this is a far cry from the facts you've been shouting.

Here is a link to go educate yourself if you dare. Be careful with this information - you might actually start using factual information instead of biased websites and the truth will fly in the face of you and your friends. This could make you very unpopular so it may be best to refute it, dismiss it, disregard it or better yet just ignore it as it is a very inconvenient truth.

Texas DPS - CHL Conviction Rates Reports

Wishing you the best,

Jim

[jdraupp]

Originally Posted by Jamesp

Giller,
I'm sure you're a nice person, and meeting you in person would be a pleasure as it would be with most of the forum because we all share an enthusiasm for the Boxster. I wasn't going to post on this thread except to offer a solution to the original question, but there goes that idea. I hope you will read your post and see the irony that though you talk about facts, even yelling it in full caps, your post hasn't any. I was going to ask you to post some facts, but trolling for them would be a burden, and as the links you posted previously clearly had a hard core anti gun bias I figured I'd go find some unbiased facts and post them, here goes.

Now I'm in Texas, the most rootinist tootinist red neck hey "y'all watch this!" uneducated cow poke state in existence. Not a day goes by that some west Texas inbred imbecile goes by in his pickup truck clinging to his bible whooping and hollering while carelessly emptying his six shooter into the air.

All that that having been said to prove the "street cred" I have from living in a gun infested environment.

Texas gun laws are some of the most forgiving in the nation. Not only can you carry your gun in your car without a permit (provided you are allowed to carry at all - no felonies, class a misdomeanors, or unpaid child support, etc.), but you can pack on a golf cart or a boat! Provided it's concealed. As of January 1st if you have a CHL you can strap a couple to your hips and do your best Yosemite Sam impersonation - Yee Haw!!!

You claim to rely on facts. You imply your opinions are formed on them so let's look at the facts of Texas CHL crime rates versus the general population. This comes from the Texas Department of Public Safety Regulatory Services Division. I'm thinking they are an unbiased database. These are for the most part violent crimes. I'll give you the punch line (or facts if you prefer). CHL holders, for the most part, commit less than one percent of violent crimes compared to the general population without a CHL, in many cases zero percent. Surprised? You should be based on your previous posts.

Here are some juicy ones that seem to be worth focusing on for 2014: Assault with a deadly weapon 0.19%, Kidnapping 0.0%, Assault on a family member 0.13%, Deadly conduct discharging a firearm 0.57%, Murder 1.3%, Manslaughter 2.7%

And the list goes on for other crimes and years with similar noise levels - this is a far cry from the facts you've been shouting.

Here is a link to go educate yourself if you dare. Be careful with this information - you might actually start using factual information instead of biased websites and the truth will fly in the face of you and your friends. This could make you very unpopular so it may be best to refute it, dismiss it, disregard it or better yet just ignore it as it is a very inconvenient truth.

Texas DPS - CHL Conviction Rates Reports

Wishing you the best,

Jim

Excellent post. The only facts that matter are that it is in fact, as many have pointed out, a personal choice to carry and own a gun. The other fact I see is that the two extreme opposite voices in this thread are set in their ways and won't hear what the other side has to say.

Giller, you keep crying for facts, yet I'm willing to bet that no amount of pro gun facts would change your mind. Similarly ChrisP, a huge study showing negative gun facts wouldn't change a thing in your mind either. I think that's ok...our difference can make us great.

I'm pro gun myself and for many of the reasons that Jim just highlighted. But I at least can see Giller from his point of view. He lives in a Canadian culture that does not promote or glamorize the use of guns. Being from America (maybe with the exception of states like Illinois California or new york) guns are a major part of our culture; heck it's right in our Constitution.

My only point here, is that if you can't at all see the other sides point of view, then there's no reason to even waste your breath arguing about it. You're only going to zoom around in circles.

[Pdwight]

Czech military pistol CZ-52 You can run but you can't hide from this one. the 7.62x25 round will penetrate level 2 armor so it will go right through a car door or window like butter and come out the other side. Not so good for home defence as the bullets go through rather than mushroom in the target.
Accurate to 50 yards.
I take it to the rifle range as the pistol range is not very challenging.

I have one of these in one of my safety deposit boxes. I got back in the 90's when they first started being imported, truly a bear of a pistol. I knew a dealer that was a importer and he must have had hundreds of these and I got to pick through them. I can't remember if it was 1 star or 4 that was the best to have but at the time that was what I got and it looks brand new....I think I paid $100 to my dealer for this another $80 for a case of ammo my buddy and I split 2 ways. Good ole HK roller lock mechanism ....and I don't mean Harmon Kardon

FWIW to many of us owning a gun is a right , just as much as owning a car....not a privilege

[boxxster]

I'm not going to argue whether or not you should have a right to have guns but the policies and cultural differences in the some of the southern states were shocking to me as a Canadian. I remember when I went to Orlando 2 years ago you had to be 16 to you use the weight room at the hotel but only 10 to shoot a gun at the range 10 minutes down the road! My visit to the shooting range was my first time shooting a gun and I can recall being really nervous about it (the first thing I shot was an AR15, which actually wasn't bad at all). The instructor reassured me that her 6yr old daughter shoots their family's AR15 all the time and its nothing be afraid about. When we were checking out, the gentleman at the front counter also proudly lifted his sweater to show off his 357 that he said he carries everywhere. Coming from Canada, I literally felt like I was in the wild west.

[Pdwight]

Yes they are quite dynamic, for me as an Instructor I would never condone letting a sub teen shoot any center-fire firearm, it would be a 22LR and for learning a single shot rifle.

I am a Rimfire fanatic, love the old guns and no recoil and no noise

[Jamesp]

Originally Posted by boxxster

I remember when I went to Orlando 2 years ago you had to be 16 to you use the weight room at the hotel but only 10 to shoot a gun at the range 10 minutes down the road

In Michigan when I was 12 years old the state offered a gun safety program to certify young folks to use a high powered rifle deer hunting. It was about 4 hours long and taught in the local middle school by a state instructor. Can you imagine that today? After the course the kids were certified to hunt without supervision. It was mainly a safety course that I remember (and follow) to this day.

[Giller]

Originally Posted by Jamesp

Giller,
I'm sure you're a nice person, and meeting you in person would be a pleasure as it would be with most of the forum because we all share an enthusiasm for the Boxster. I wasn't going to post on this thread except to offer a solution to the original question, but there goes that idea. I hope you will read your post and see the irony that though you talk about facts, even yelling it in full caps, your post hasn't any. I was going to ask you to post some facts, but trolling for them would be a burden, and as the links you posted previously clearly had a hard core anti gun bias I figured I'd go find some unbiased facts and post them, here goes.

Now I'm in Texas, the most rootinist tootinist red neck hey "y'all watch this!" uneducated cow poke state in existence. Not a day goes by that some west Texas inbred imbecile goes by in his pickup truck clinging to his bible whooping and hollering while carelessly emptying his six shooter into the air.

All that that having been said to prove the "street cred" I have from living in a gun infested environment.

Texas gun laws are some of the most forgiving in the nation. Not only can you carry your gun in your car without a permit (provided you are allowed to carry at all - no felonies, class a misdomeanors, or unpaid child support, etc.), but you can pack on a golf cart or a boat! Provided it's concealed. As of January 1st if you have a CHL you can strap a couple to your hips and do your best Yosemite Sam impersonation - Yee Haw!!!

You claim to rely on facts. You imply your opinions are formed on them so let's look at the facts of Texas CHL crime rates versus the general population. This comes from the Texas Department of Public Safety Regulatory Services Division. I'm thinking they are an unbiased database. These are for the most part violent crimes. I'll give you the punch line (or facts if you prefer). CHL holders, for the most part, commit less than one percent of violent crimes compared to the general population without a CHL, in many cases zero percent. Surprised? You should be based on your previous posts.

Here are some juicy ones that seem to be worth focusing on for 2014: Assault with a deadly weapon 0.19%, Kidnapping 0.0%, Assault on a family member 0.13%, Deadly conduct discharging a firearm 0.57%, Murder 1.3%, Manslaughter 2.7%

And the list goes on for other crimes and years with similar noise levels - this is a far cry from the facts you've been shouting.

Here is a link to go educate yourself if you dare. Be careful with this information - you might actually start using factual information instead of biased websites and the truth will fly in the face of you and your friends. This could make you very unpopular so it may be best to refute it, dismiss it, disregard it or better yet just ignore it as it is a very inconvenient truth.

Texas DPS - CHL Conviction Rates Reports

Wishing you the best,
Jim

As an FYI....if you read my earlier posts, I did post links to a number of facts. Many of those involved people with a license to carry.....and basically summarized you are no safer carrying vs. not carrying. Stats were based on all 50 States. I will certainly check out your link and consider. This was all I was asking goofboy for. Thanks Jim.