IMS failure - how can I confirm my engine is toast?

[Fintro11]

Just throw in another engine that was my plan with that car

[clickman]

What engine?

[Jake Raby]

Extracting a failed bearing, and replacing it without full disassembly is a death sentence for the engine. When the bearing failed the engine probably saw collateral damage, with bent valves and etc. Thats aside from the extreme amount of metal debris in the engine that can only be removed with disassembly and ultrasonic cleaning.

[Townhome]

Well after pulling the pan I found a consderable amount of metal chips. Nothing big but too big to try to attempt to replace the IMS bearing and flush.
I have an offer on a 2005 3.2 replacement engine with 45,000 miles.
Thanks for all your wise advice guys.
Hugely appreciated.

Update: I won't be buying the used engine as its just too much$$$
Still looking for a replacement as splitting the cases to clean scares me. Too bad as this engine and car has been well cared for.

[Townhome]

Originally Posted by clickman

What engine?

3.2 engine

[Townhome]

Originally Posted by Jamesp

Excellent point.

The build date is Feb 2005.

[Jamesp]

Originally Posted by Townhome

Well after pulling the pan I found a consderable amount of metal chips. Nothing big but too big to try to attempt to replace the IMS bearing and flush.
I have an offer on a 2005 3.2 replacement engine with 45,000 miles.
Thanks for all your wise advice guys.
Hugely appreciated.

Update: I won't be buying the used engine as its just too much$$$
Still looking for a replacement as splitting the cases to clean scares me. Too bad as this engine and car has been well cared for.

You are likely looking at a new engine. The only slim possibility would be if the car came with the old style bearing which is removable without splitting the case and if the IMS shaft was not damaged. Chances of that are slim, and even then you've seen the dire predictions if you just replace the bearing and clean it up. Me, I'd roll the dice and at least look at the IMSB to decide how I wanted to go forward. There were folks who made comments when I was rebuilding my engine after an IMSB failure that it would not work (including the cleaning). That was 7000 miles ago. So much for the critics.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by Jamesp

So much for the critics.

Not a matter of being critical, very few engines that have suffered an IMS failure make it with a replacement bearing and not being taken apart and cleaned; the odds against you are very high. You were quite fortunate, literally "one of the few"............

[Jamesp]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

Not a matter of being critical, very few engines that have suffered an IMS failure make it with a replacement bearing and not being taken apart and cleaned; the odds against you are very high. You were quite fortunate, literally "one of the few"............

I'd like to see the numbers on that. I did take mine apart and cleaned it with solvents, not ultrasonic. My sense is the stock oil filter does a better job than it is credited with as has been amply demonstrated when they are cut open. What do the chips take out? Seriously, provided the oil filter does not fail, they go through the oil pump and end up in the filter. If they are too big, the end up in the pan. The death blow isn't the chips, its the damage that created them. Now if an open bearing is chosen as an IMSB replacement using unfiltered oil, the story changes.

[flaps10]

There is where I have to disagree James. My main and rod bearings were heavily worn from those chips and my cam journals (they aren't really bearings in any sense) had some light scratches - thankfully light enough that I may have dodged a lightening bolt.

I do agree that the stock filter is better than it is given credit for, and it is certainly easier to inspect.

I'm also curious how the LN filter ( which I have installed ) is supposed to eliminate bypass since it mounts on the same location as the stock filter. Bypass is usually a function of the oil pressure relief and the LN doesn't touch that.

[Jamesp]

Originally Posted by flaps10

filter is better than it is given credit for, and it is certainly easier to inspect.

I'm also curious how the LN filter ( which I have installed ) is supposed to eliminate bypass since it mounts on the same location as the stock filter. Bypass is usually a function of the oil pressure relief and the LN doesn't touch that.

Apparently the stock filter housing has a spring and plate in the bottom that also acts as a bypass if the oil is cold enough. My rod and crank bearings were also worn, but evenly (not scratched) from 120K of freeway driving. The chips never made it past the filter in my case.

[Wild Bill]

Check vertex motors I think good prices.

[flaps10]

Good to know James, thanks for the clarity about the LN filter base.

Oh as to the recommendation that it needs a new engine - there aren't any. You can buy a short block from Porsche for rediculous money (relative to car value), or a rebuild from a VERY few sources, a used motor of unknown history, or get out your tools and figure it out as you and I (and a small hand full of others) have.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by Jamesp

I'd like to see the numbers on that. I did take mine apart and cleaned it with solvents, not ultrasonic. My sense is the stock oil filter does a better job than it is credited with as has been amply demonstrated when they are cut open. What do the chips take out? Seriously, provided the oil filter does not fail, they go through the oil pump and end up in the filter. If they are too big, the end up in the pan. The death blow isn't the chips, its the damage that created them. Now if an open bearing is chosen as an IMSB replacement using unfiltered oil, the story changes.

Obviously, I cannot speak for all attempts at this, but we have had three customers that had IMS failures (which we identified in the shop by pulling the sump covers) that then subsequently undertook DIY retrofit and multiple oil flushes (no engine disassembly), and none of them survived more than 200 miles.

You case is somewhat different in that you at least tried to mechanically remove as much debris as possible before returning the car to service. Most people actually do not attempt that.

[thom4782]

James

Did you use a sealed bearing when you replaced the IMSB?

[Jamesp]

Originally Posted by thom4782

James

Did you use a sealed bearing when you replaced the IMSB?

I did. I researched bearings and found that "fully sealed" bearings are available. I chose a fully sealed high temp steel ball bearing. The grease, and more importantly the seal material (Viton) is upgraded in this bearing. In a fully sealed bearing the side shields touch the inner race.

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

Not a matter of being critical, very few engines that have suffered an IMS failure make it with a replacement bearing and not being taken apart and cleaned; the odds against you are very high. You were quite fortunate, literally "one of the few"............

Therefore, this shouldn't even be attempted. If you do it, please use a competitors products, and make sure you post the failure pics after it fails again.