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Old 03-21-2006, 10:27 AM   #1
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Tiptronic and Paddle Shifters

Can someone explain this to me. I have a friend that has a 355 Ferrari with the semi-automatic paddle shifters. What is the difference between that and the Tiptronic shifters in the Porsches. Essentially they are both automatics right? Or is the Ferrari not an automatic and it has to shift gears with the paddles no matter what?...?

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Old 03-21-2006, 10:50 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jangobox
Or is the Ferrari not an automatic and it has to shift gears with the paddles no matter what?...?
Bingo!

IIRC, the Ferrari shifter does not have (or did not have) "automatic" mode like the Tiptronic. It's an optimized shifter that clutches and shifts in one very quick motion when the paddle is flipped.

Somebody please confirm or kill this, but I think the addition of the "automatic" mode somehow slows the shifting ability in the "manual" mode on the Tiptronic and that's probably why Ferrari doesn't have it. This is a guess since the Tiptronic is slightly slower that the 5-speed manual Boxster.
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Old 03-21-2006, 04:15 PM   #3
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I know some one else can get more technical than me, but it is to my understanding that a Ferrari, or SMG Bimmer, are manuals with automatic/electronic clutches. A tiptronic is a switch that just tells the automatic transmission when to shift.
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Old 03-21-2006, 04:21 PM   #4
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The Ferrari F1 system is an automatic shift manual transmission

Porsche Tiptronic is a manual shift automatic transmission
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Old 03-21-2006, 04:23 PM   #5
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I am officially confused. Or am I confused officially?
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Old 03-21-2006, 04:52 PM   #6
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PSP said it best. An automatic tranny uses a torque converter to transfer engine load to the drivetrain. A manual transmission uses a clutch.

Here's a good introduction to auto trannies:

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/automatic-transmission.htm

There's a manual tranny page there too if you search for it. Read up on all of that.

Tiptronic is just an auto tranny that shifts when you tell it to. It still has all the deficiencies of an automatic tranny.

F1-style transmissions use a hydraulic system to operate the clutch instead of your foot on a pedal doing the same thing. In essence, it's still a manual transmission. That's over-simplified of course, but there's the basics.

DSG of course, is a lot different.
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Old 03-21-2006, 07:17 PM   #7
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Aaaaaahhh, manual-schmanual. So it's a manual automatic vs. automatic manual.

The Ferrari's "automatic-manual" engages the clutch, shifts then disengages the clutch much faster than a mere mortal can.

Even the darn video game is a blast just to zip through the gears.
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Old 03-21-2006, 08:15 PM   #8
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....and if you think a Boxster clutch is expensive, you don't even want to know how much a Ferrari F1 clutch costs
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Old 03-22-2006, 05:06 AM   #9
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So basically what you guys are saying is that anyone who doesn't know how to drive a stick and only has 1 leg, can drive a car with F1 style shifters, correct?
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Old 03-22-2006, 06:45 AM   #10
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Cool

One can feel the difference immed. if you drive say, a BMW with seq auto shift vs the tip. The manual shifts on the tip feel downright SLOW when compared to the BMW's.

Where is Jim MN Boxster when you need him?
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Old 03-22-2006, 07:11 AM   #11
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But don't forget the Tipper has a number of different shift maps selected by the on-board computer which will sharpen shifts, hold shift points longer, etc., depending on how agressively the car is being driven. It really does work, too.
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Old 03-22-2006, 07:21 AM   #12
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The key difference is that automatic transmissions have torque converters while manual transmissions have clutches. Thus, a transmission featuring a torque converter that can be shifted electronically is a manually shifted automatic while a transmission featuring a cluch that can be shifted electronically is an automatically shifted manual.

The terms "manual" and "automatic" are confusing and really no longer apply.

You have transmissions based on torque converters, and transmissions based on clutches, and each type has different mechanisms for actuating gear changes.

Which is better? Torque converter based trannies are smoother while clutch based trannies shift faster.

The best demonstration of this technology is in Formula 1, where gearboxes shift in milliseconds using clutch-based designs shifted via hydraulics.
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Old 03-22-2006, 07:59 AM   #13
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If there was ever an argument that could be filed under "Antics With Semantics", the manually shifted automatic vs automatically shifted manual is it.
To my perhaps overly-simple mind, a transmission that shifts by itself, without action on the part of the driver, is an automatic transmission, regardless of whether the engineering solution to the problem was to use a torque converter or a bunch of hydraulics hung on the side of a standard gearbox.
Maybe calling them all "automatic shift(able) transmission" would suit everybody's sensibilities.
F1 would have been using fully automatic shift transmissions for the past 15 years if a few of the drivers, notably Ayrton Senna, hadn't ********************ed their heads off about needing to at least wiggle their fingers to effect a gear change, thus justifying their inflated salaries.
I, too, yearn for the days when a driver could "miss a shift" and blow the engine to smithereens, but I don't think we're going to get there anymore.
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Old 03-22-2006, 08:08 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jangobox
So basically what you guys are saying is that anyone who doesn't know how to drive a stick and only has 1 leg, can drive a car with F1 style shifters, correct?
Part of the "ADA".
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Old 03-22-2006, 08:28 AM   #15
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When I was 18 years old my Dad told me I "shiftless" and I couldn't understand where He was comming from because I had a 60 TR3 and it was a 4 speed.
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Old 03-22-2006, 09:22 AM   #16
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Yeah, all the fun went out of driving when manual spark advancement went away...
(The Model T apparently had a lever on the steering stalk to change the ingnition advance/retard. The throttle was a lever on the opposite side of the steering stalk. Smooth driving required moving the 2 levers in harmony to match the new spark advance setting with the higher engine speed. Boy, now those were the days...

Scary thought, but with GPS controls, advances in remotely piloted vehicles, etc., who's to say that the day won't come when an 8 year old can sit in a car, punch a button, and turn in top lap times on track. Controls and automation sciences continue to leap forward.

I'll settle for an engine that doesn't blow RM seals

Back on track, when paddle shifting, automatic clutching manual transmissions get (a) good and (b) affordable, I'll probably get one. And I think that day isn't far off at all.
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Old 03-22-2006, 10:05 AM   #17
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Yeah, i think we already discussed that, and how it's not a comparison that matters. On a turbocharged car especially, automatics have a great advantage in that you don't have to lift off and then spool the turbo back up whenever you shift.
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Old 03-22-2006, 10:48 AM   #18
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I disagree that the manual will ever completely go away. As long as there are customers willing to pay for it - and many of us fall into that category, then it'll be aroun.
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Old 03-22-2006, 11:04 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbth
Porsche website has the new carrera turbo faster 0-60 with tip than manual.

Manual transmissions will soon go away like dials on telephones and phonographs....
What's a phonograph?................



LOL - Just kidding...

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