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Old 02-14-2014, 11:12 AM   #1
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Interesting Video on Air Cooled 911's

IMO the bubble could possibly burst in the next two years but still interesting food for thought:



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Old 02-14-2014, 11:33 AM   #2
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saw this last night, was tempted to post haha. Really enjoy this show, but gotta say I cringed a bit with their reaction to the boxster.
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Old 02-14-2014, 11:35 AM   #3
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Irony. The faster, better-handling, less expensive long-term maintenance, faster, safer, less leaky, faster, better balanced, more forgiving the Porsche... the less likely it is to recoupe its original sticker price.

That said, If I had the space I'd be buying 964's and 911's by the hangar full. Not for this silly obsession on the resale of a used car that many air-cooled owners suffer from, but because if I did want one of these car I wouldn't be interested in bidding in a speculative frenzy for it.

But I don't think these cars are in a bubble and I certainly don't agree with these guys that it's too late for most 911's. Why? It's a simple supply and demand proposition for a finite production. Neither do I agree with these guys that the reason for the upturn is due to the 911 being a great car. The 996 is a great car too... yet the price action is completely different. Mechanical merit, like Reliability, really doesn't matter anymore because the most valuable 911's are all garage queens now. It's all about accessibility of cars that were sold as few as ~2,500 units in the 993's last year.. *during* a gang busters bull market economy. The Boxster quickly sold five times that soon after. But at the same time it's not like 550 shopping, you'll have no problem finding a good 911 in a day at plausible price because so many are enthusiast owned and nearly all will part with them for the right price..

My advice, don't buy now. Basically wait for the next credit crunch or stock market crash where the aspirational wealthy need to pay some bills fast, buy a 964 fixer upper and you'll have a garage queen highly likely to appreciate.

p.s.

996/Boxster/Cayman = workhorse cars that can put the weekend warrior within seconds of a factory driver's best lap without breaking the bank.

air cooled = will never be a workhorse car.

And as for our Boxster, the interviewer should have pointed out that mid-engine Porsches were the first supreme race winners, long before the revamped 356 was a figment in amy Porsche engineers head. and the Boxster is faster and better handling than 90% of all Carreras ever built.
We just made way too many of them. Great for rescuing the brand from going into bankruptcy not so good if you want to trade them like baseball cards.
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Old 02-14-2014, 12:03 PM   #4
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23 minutes, that took longer than I expected Perfectlap .

I posted the video as food for thought for those who've been contemplating a move to air cooled or an additional P-car, not another "but my Boxster IS really a Porsche" debate. That crap is old and tired, give it a rest.
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Old 02-14-2014, 12:11 PM   #5
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23 minutes, that took longer than I expected Perfectlap .

I posted the video as food for thought for those who've been contemplating a move to air cooled or an additional P-car, not another "but my Boxster IS really a Porsche" debate. That crap is old and tired, give it a rest.
Well as someone who actually owns a Boxster on a Boxster forum, where a video discusses, some might even say mocks a Boxster, I think those of us who actually own a Boxster, and have been on this forum well before you ever joined, are more than entitled to post our old, tired crap in response to those purist comments.

If you don't want feedback given in a posted video that disagrees with what the typical purist believes about our beloved Boxster, then you might have more success finding comments along those lines on a 911 purist forum.

Know your audience...

p.s.
and for the record my first comment wasn't just about the Boxster being mentioned.
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Old 02-14-2014, 12:12 PM   #6
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saw this last night, was tempted to post haha. Really enjoy this show, but gotta say I cringed a bit with their reaction to the boxster.
You have to keep in mind this discussion was with a couple of guys who buy / sell cars for a living, the Boxster will likely not enter any speculative realm for quite awhile if ever.

In Perfectlap's defense on his comment above I frankly agree with him on from a pure handling / performance position the Boxster, especially an S, is a better value, but that concept is not germane to what is being talked about in the above video.
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Old 02-14-2014, 12:13 PM   #7
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Just to add though, the guy with the undesirable hair's DD is a MR2 Spyder... We all know that the only reason ANYONE would buy a late model MR2 is because they can not afford a boxster.
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Old 02-14-2014, 12:19 PM   #8
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Just to add though, the guy with the undesirable hair's DD is a MR2 Spyder... We all know that the only reason ANYONE would buy a late model MR2 is because they can not afford a boxster.
Not really. At all. MR2 Spyder is a great car with a reliable engine. Always has been. The seating position was a little weird for me on the newer one. But I've seen it peform pretty well at autocross. There were these two guys at one club, where one drove an 80's MR2 and another drove an early 1990's Civic and those two guys were seperated by 0.01 seconds week after week after week. Easily two of the quickest drivers out there on any given day.
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Old 02-14-2014, 12:21 PM   #9
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I frankly agree with him on from a pure handling / performance position the Boxster, especially an S, is a better value, but that concept is not germane to what is being talked about in the above video.
Might want to tell the guy from Drive that brought up the Boxster in his video that it wasn't germane to his video.
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Old 02-14-2014, 12:22 PM   #10
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Well as someone who actually owns a Boxster on a Boxster forum, where a video discusses, some might even say mocks a Boxster, I think those of us who actually own a Boxster, and have been on this forum well before you ever joined, are more than entitled to post our old, tired crap in response to those purist comments.

If you don't want feedback given in a posted video that disagrees with what the typical purist believes about our beloved Boxster, then you might have more success finding comments along those lines on a 911 purist forum.

Know your audience...
I had owned a Boxster for a few years and had done quite a bit of work to it myself, much more than most here.

Regarding mocking the Boxster, you are entirely too thin skinned about it. Why you care so much about others opinions on this is beyond me.

My "tired old crap" comment was directly towards you and you're one trick pony response to anything 911 related, you deride the model to feel better about yours, it's pathetic.

I do know the audience, P-Car enthusiasts, figured a 35 minute video might interest them.


DISCLAIMER.....If you are prone to wet yourself over any snide remarks or body gestures concerning a Porsche Boxster please do not watch the above video beyond the 30 minute mark.

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Old 02-14-2014, 12:23 PM   #11
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late model... i love older MR2's... regardless even if he could afford a boxster and choose a MR2 over it. How could you hate on the boxster, it follows the same principles of his car mid engine convertible that isn't a super car. They are literately the only two cars in that class.
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Old 02-14-2014, 12:32 PM   #12
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I really like after drive and have been watching it for months, but even in other occasions like with all the BRZ or that segments, they seem to be snide to the boxster. Gawking over Z4s and Viggens *i do love a viggen and many locals helped build those original Z4s here in S.C. so i do respect and care for those car* Yet not even mentioning a boxster, something that top gear and fifth gear have mentioned as a GREAT car for a used car buy, and that was a few years ago when prices were even higher. I really like and respect all the 911s in the video, just for me i feel the "real Porsche" cut off is later in years. The only thing even about current Porsches that particularly gets to me is one of the dials being a Screen with Nav and such, I have never found anything so tacky in my life. Screens on the console are fine but keep them away from my instrument cluster.
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Old 02-14-2014, 12:33 PM   #13
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I do know the audience, P-Car enthusiasts, figured a 35 minute video might interest them.
Which it sure will as we all love Porsches.

But taking exception to this Porsche camp turning their nose down at our Porsche camp is the Porsche community way: These guys make fun of the 928, those guys make fun of the 996, these guys say the 914 is crap, bla, bla, bla. It's just part of the Porsche thing. No need to have a seizure every time it comes up. But I am always surprised when I hear purists buy into the Porsche marketing spin that anything not a rear engine car is somehow less Porsche.

By the way, I suscribe to Drive on YouTube, I was going to post this video as well.
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Old 02-14-2014, 12:39 PM   #14
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kinda "old News", after Magnus Walker, Rob Dickinson and even Jay Leno discussed that 911 air cooled bubble

no doubt...911 air cooled --> THE iconic PORSCHE...a MUST HAVE at any time

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Old 02-14-2014, 12:45 PM   #15
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I agree that there is a huge bubble right now.

I find an air cooled 911 highly desirable. They are an incredible experience to drive.

When I find the right car at the right price, I'll buy one.

When I do buy one, it will be to drive it, not as an investment.
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Old 02-14-2014, 12:50 PM   #16
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kinda "old News", after Magnus Walker, Rob Dickinson and even Jay Leno discussed that 911 air cooled bubble

no doubt...911 air cooled --> THE iconic PORSCHE...a MUST HAVE at any time
Yes and no. The rate of acceleration for prices in the past year on these cars is pretty astounding. I kind of discounted much of it to the "you can ASK whatever you want, doesn't mean you're gonna get it" theory but started watching some of the ads for the cars mentioned in the above ads, it's not unusual to see them sell in hours.

Like I said in the first post, I'm guessing there will be a bubble / correction eventually, it's just amazing to watch from the sidelines though. The real bummer is the prices are getting too goofy due to the speculation for some enthusiasts who've been wanting to buy.
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Old 02-14-2014, 12:56 PM   #17
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Well given the price of used air-cooled Carrera it wouldn't be a very good use of money if you're just trying to invest the money. Way better options for sure.

But a bubble is like pets.com shares, inflated wildly and at the end of the day it will never recoupe its highest price. That's not the case with the air-cooled Carreras. Their numbers are shrinking while the demand for them will always be strong. Particularly among bidders who learned to drive in the 70's and 80's. After the next economic downturn air-cooled Carreras will recoupe these high current prices and some will far exceed even those prices. I would say it's more a cyclical spike than text book bubble. But the long-term trend is obvious, Carreras will never lose you money if you own it long enough and you don't bid irrationally:
Paying $300K for a Magnus Walker 911 or a Singer really leaves little upside, it's priced for perfection.
At those prices their a long list of comps from Ferrari, McLaren, Lamborghini, etc.
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Old 02-14-2014, 01:27 PM   #18
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In my recent shopping/buying experience I felt like I had little to no leverage as the buyer (IN JANUARY). It went basically like this, here is the car and here is the price. Take it or the next guy in line will. Ultimately, I got the seller to lower the price some because some things came up in the PPI, but even then it was just shaving a little off the price but not enough to risk motivating the seller to talk to the next guy in line.

Its a crazy time for the market on 911s. I don't see that changing much either.

I also think this is part of why the Boxster market is so soft right now. Everyone who is a Porsche nut and not content with the Boxster wants to trade-up while they can still afford to. The 986 Boxster is still an amazing car with timeless lines and an amazing entry level P-Car. I just don't see it ever shaking that stigma of being "entry level".

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Old 02-14-2014, 01:39 PM   #19
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^ The 981 will change that stigma. Well if VW continue in this direction of putting more power in Boxster/Cayman S. The tide of the most coveted Carreras lifted all the Carreras boats when they entered "peak Carrera". You couldn't give away some of the 911's not more than 12 years ago.
An old 911 was the car you bought if you couldn't afford a new Boxster S. But over-supply and demand righted that ship in barely 10 years.

As far as pricing, the Boxster/996 market will always be soft. Way too many cars not enough buyers willing to take an out-of-warranty chance on a car that isn't a garage queen. The same will happen to the metric ton of all water-cooled Porsches since the Boxster ....that aren't GT3 or RS.
I think the a 996 GT3 or RS could be more valueable than many of these air-cooled Carreras some day. Some guys actually want to drive their cars the way the Porsche Gods intended. And the 996 GT3's are inherently different than the street version 996 while being powerful, fast and reliable in long track stints and still being low in production to manage demand glut. In other words the 996 GT3 are in a unique positiont to offer a lot of what other Porsche air-cooled and water-cooled Carreras can not.
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Old 02-14-2014, 04:58 PM   #20
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Well given the price of used air-cooled Carrera it wouldn't be a very good use of money if you're just trying to invest the money. Way better options for sure.

But a bubble is like pets.com shares, inflated wildly and at the end of the day it will never recoupe its highest price. That's not the case with the air-cooled Carreras. Their numbers are shrinking while the demand for them will always be strong. Particularly among bidders who learned to drive in the 70's and 80's. After the next economic downturn air-cooled Carreras will recoupe these high current prices and some will far exceed even those prices. I would say it's more a cyclical spike than text book bubble. But the long-term trend is obvious, Carreras will never lose you money if you own it long enough and you don't bid irrationally:
Paying $300K for a Magnus Walker 911 or a Singer really leaves little upside, it's priced for perfection.
At those prices their a long list of comps from Ferrari, McLaren, Lamborghini, etc.
I think that these kinds of trends are somewhat generational. For example, the same thing has been happening in the muscle car world for quite awhile. Same rationale - fixed inventory. But now the owners/buyers are starting to leave the hobby because they are getting too old to need 3 or 4 restored muscle cars and guess what - no one else wants them. Younger car addicts aren't interested in 50's or 60's cars, they want the cars that THEY grew up with. Same thing will happen with 911's. Hot now. Cold tomorrow (but not worthless, just worth less than they are now).

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