How close is KBB for REAL Porsche Value?

[driftguy]

I'm considering posting my Box up for sale or even trading it in and like every previous car I've owned I ran to Kelley Blue Book to get an idea of what I can expect as a fair offer. To me, KBB seems under real world prices a significant amount for Boxsters. It valued the Box as a trade-in under $9,000 and even a Private Party sale was hardly over $11,000. I took a look on Cars.com and Autotrader in the 250 mile or so range and found several Boxsters to run comparisons on. Each one was for sale much higher than what they actually "should" be for sale according to KBB. Even compensating for negotiation room, I can't imagine someone would post a car for sale, whether a dealership or private party, 3-10k MORE than what KBB would recommend. What am I missing? Is the market value really that much different than KBB for Porsche? Or are these dealers/owners just wishfully thinking and sitting on these cars for ages?

Anyone care to throw a number out there for what should be a "reasonable" value for trade-in of my Boxster?

1999 2.5L
Manual Transmission
33,000 miles
Bose System w/ Door Speakers
Factory Amp
Power Seats w/ Memory
Cruise Control
17" Turbo Twist wheels
New Upgraded Soft Top with Glass Window (GAHH equivalent)
Tinted Windows just done a week ago (legal limit of course)
In Superb condition, new tires, freshly repainted and repaired passenger side door (too many dings), repainted rear deck lid with new Boxster script, repainted front and rear bumpers and new bumperettes. The interior is immaculate with no wear, scratches, and everything functions perfectly. It almost looks brand new.

[dghii]

All I can tell you is I find KBB to be a little high for Boxsters. Take your same car and get the numbers from Edmunds or NADA. They results will all be differnet. Really just have to look at what the asking prices are for cars in your area.

You might want to check completed autions on ebay as another reference, looking at the auctions that actually closed, or cars that received lots of bids. Its not perfect but does give you another data point.

[Dlirium]

If you look for a used boxster out here in SF bay area, you'd think they were made out of Gold! They are 20%- 30% HIGHER than KBB, and they stick with it...i don't know if there are just a bunch of suckers out here with more $$ than brains, or what, but they don't negotiate much.

For example, I was looking for an automatic for the wife. Came across a 2006 with 65k miles. Blue book says that a reasonable price from a dealer (not PP, mind you) is $17.5k. This one was a little beat, but in good condition. the sticker was $21k (!), and that was their "true pricing" (which means we don't negotiate). On the last day of January, i called them and they were willing to come down to $20k. Still a good $3k off the mark...

I have more stories, but at the end of the day, i got so frustrated with the dealerships out here that i bought her a BMW 330ci convertible instead. Probably won't have an IMS problem with that one :-)

[RaisedOnPorsches]

KBB rarely reflects the market price for Porsches accurately. That said there are a lot of Boxsters out there and the difference in price between an early 986 and a late ('03-'04) isn't that much considering what more you're getting (especially comparing an early 2.5l to an S 3.2l). As I'm sure you've seen I'm working on selling my '99 and the market is slow. I've had a couple local lookers, but most of them then realize they really need more than 2-seats.

You're '99 is very low mileage and usually that is a good thing, but Boxsters are drivers' cars not collectors' cars. Unless you've retrofitted the IMS bearing and other known problem parts, a more informed buyer might be leery. That said any 986 Boxster is a hell-of-a-lot of car for $10-12k!

FWIW, I bought my 993 at approximately double the KBB value. In fact I had to get it appraised for lender/insurance reasons, so that a real market price was known for the vehicle. The appraisal came in above my purchasing price, so well more than double KBB.

[Perfectlap]

Yes the condition of "my Porsche is worth 30% more than the market will pay" is a well known affliction. The merits of the car are not nearly as important as the equivalent supply of similar, or somewhat similar Porsches. And the market is up to its eyeballs in water-cooled Porsches. If you need a Porsche in a day, you'll have absolutely no problem finding a well looked after, low mileage example just sitting pretty waiting for an offer to buy. If the average owner is in a hurry to sell a Porsche, they'll be lucky to get what they think their own car is worth. Frankly as long as the car is not a daily driver, I think you can make a good argument that selling a low mileage Porsche that's been paid off long ago is a better value than looking for another sports car of equivalent value... meaning if you're only selling to get into another sports car without kicking in more money, its not worth selling.


KBB? Terrible. For starters Boxster prices vary greatly by market.

Most importantly, the condition of individual Boxster rarely account for needed repairs and maintenance. So KBB is almost irrelevant to the buyer since they still have to sit down and compare what has been fixed vs. what typically goes on the Porsche at around that mileage. Case in point, my suspension overhaul with new rotors and water pump at less than 90K miles easily cost half of the market value for the whole car. And those are all fairly typical repairs at 70-100K miles.

KBB is simply a starting point from which you start subtracting (or adding) the repairs the owner has done. As they say, the cost of repairs do not scale down with time.

To potential buyers readign this: you want to know my advice after a decade plus of Porsche ownership? In after 20K miles and out by 50K miles and move onto the next Porsche.
Don't buy from a dealer unless they're giving you something a private seller isn't. Make sure the car has had oil changes every 7-12 months with records to show this. Make sure the rear tires aren't worn, Boxster-worthy tires can easily cost a $1k.

[driftguy]

Thanks for the feedback gentlemen. I'm still not solid on a number, so I think I'll set a high target and negotiate from there. This is my second Boxster in 2 years and I did my fair share of test drives and scouting to get an idea of what the "average" condition is of a typical Boxster in my car's age and mileage range. Would anyone like to provide input on a value?

[Perfectlap]

well I think you're missing some options that end up making the car look like a 2.5. Namely 18" wheels, Litronics and aero. But to be fair I don't believe that these were available options in '99 (which is why it looks like a 2.5 at first glance). So basically the bulk of the value in your car boils down to the going rate for a low'ish mileage 2.5 engine. Porsches in general are worth shockingly little without their engines.
I'd say between $9-$10K is fair.
Any higher at all and you can probably land a 3.2 also on the smaller 17" wheels, also minus litronics or aero treatment with slightly bit more mileage but as long as its in the 30K - 50K range its still the more sought after option because you're up to 250 HP. That's the problem with Porsches, even if you have a low miler to sell, there's always a similar Porsche with more power for sale right next to yours and the market doesn't seem to give somewhat bigger engines that much of a pricing bounce thereby making those the first to sell.

[RaisedOnPorsches]

I concur more or less with Perfectlap here. For the water-cooled Porsches (especially 986/996) it is a buyer's market out there. In my case it doesn't help me that the rainy season *finally* just started in Northern California.

I wont toss around numbers since I'm in this sellers market too right now, but I will say that my $12.5k price for my '99 Boxster (with 82k miles, hardtop, humps, RTS and various significant repairs, such as IMSB, RMS, cluth...yadda, yadda, yadda) is a starting point for negotiations.

One of my buddies almost bought my car (in part because he's been drooling over it during the entire period of my ownership), but his wife cracked the whip and demanded 4-doors and 4-seats because they want to have kids soon. Instead he's looking at a 2007-8 BMW 330i sedan (300 hp due to twin-turbo v6) for $15k from a dealer. The 330i isn't a Porsche and it isn't a sports car, but it is a hell of a lot of car for the price and its practical enough for the wife-factor.

Within the PCar world there are a lot of 986/996 for sale right now. Outside of the PCar world, there are a lot of used cars out there at a similar price point that can make it difficult to convince a buyer to go with the 'impractical' 2-seat roadster.

Good luck!

[BIGJake111]

i was actually able to buy my specific car under what we valued it for on KBB... but hardly any boxsters in my area are piced at the value, most are 2k or so over what they are valued, and the lower the miles the higher the margin between the sellers price and what it is actually "worth"

[BIGJake111]

as for OP though, only suggestion is make sure to price it lower than the cheapest S you can find.... because the people with the money to buy a 2.5 with low miles would likely rather buy a 2.7 or an S with 60 to 70k miles for the same price of course.

[Steve Tinker]

So, carrying on with this theme and without hijacking driftguys thread, how much more would you pay $$$ wise for the S over base - everything else being equal in terms of condition, mileage, maintenance records etc ??
I would have thought that only enthusiastic buyers would know that the S has the bigger engine, Brembo's, 6 speed and so on. Many purchasers over here wouldn't have clue regarding the extras that come with an S model.....

[BigShow]

I like Pefectlap’s Reply. Here’s my buyer’s perspective. First I’m a newb, the only thing I know about Porches cars is what I’m reading online, and that over the last two to three weeks, love the 986 Forum.

I’m researching Boxsters, Caymans, and I’m starting to look at 911s. I think that actually I’m 6 to 12 months away from buying. Locally the selection looks thin, better deals on the East Coast; Texas, the South, and the West Coast are just too far away.

The few Boxsters that I’ve seen are 1999 and 2000 models, most had about 60,000 miles and none looked very good. I’m looking at a 1999 911 tomorrow. These Boxsters were in dealer lots, one in a Porsche dealer lot. The Porsche Dealer wanted a lot more for a car with 30,000 more miles than the others.

There’s virtually no vehicle history for these cars. There’s no telling what has or hasn’t been done, IMS, RMS, brakes, you name it. It’s like I’m buying a ticking wallet bomb. My perception is that I’m contemplating buying a money pit, but I still want one (I sold my boat so I know what it’s like).

I’m starting to think that buying a used Porsche, an older one, from a dealer is about the worst decision you can make and buying from a private owner, an informed one, is a much better option, worth more to me. The KBB or Edmunds will show higher prices at the dealer and lower at the private seller/owner, I think that for a Boxster that’s backwards. I doubt dealers are going to offer a warrantee on a 14 year old car.

When (or if) I do buy a Porsche I’m going to use the lack of information, and the ticking time bomb IMS, as heavy leveraging tools to beat down the price. I’m further going to use the PPI results to try beat down the price more.

So, what can you do to make your Box stand out to a buyer like me? I don’t need to know that it has standard equipment, I don’t want to sort through that, it hides what’s unique. I want to know in order of preference:
Asking price
Mileage
Model year
Base or S
No kidding Great/Good/Fair/Poor condition assessment (I‘ll do a PPI so be accurate)
Private/Porsche Dealer/Major Dealer/Joe’s around the corner dealer
Available service records and by who
IMS replaced
RMS replaced
Miles on tires
Miles on brakes
Miles on rotors
Other replaced parts
Other enhancements like Audio, Radar detector
I really don’t want a car that someone has tweaked for more power

I was thinking of developing a buyer’s check list. Actually started one. But I’m thinking that I’ll pay someone to do a PPI. So If I get emotionally attached to a car the PPI should be the tool to take out the emotion.

If I can’t find something that I like in a year I’ll look hard at the new I4/V6/GT Mustang and the GTI. I’ve ruled out Camaro, Tobaru, and Z370. Corvettes, Audis, and BMWs don’t appeal to me.

[RaisedOnPorsches]

BigShow - It's a darn shame we aren't closer to one another because you seem like the sort of buyer that I'd like to connect with.

[BIGJake111]

the only issue with using ims and whatnot to haggle, is that there will always be some idiot that just wants a cheap porsche and the seller will know that.

[BigShow]

RaisedOnPorsches listing is about perfect, a great example. Cool roof rack plus a hard top. I could put my wakesurf boards on the roof rack. Yes, too bad your on the Left Coast.

[BigShow]

I might be that idiot, but my main concern is reducing my financial risk. The purchase price for a 1999-2001 Boxster is low, low for me. But it looks like it can be an iceberg. The purchase price is the thing you see above the waterline, everything else is below. I don't expect a new, maintenance free experience with a 14 year old car, but I want to know what those risks are.

Consumables, brakes, gas, oil, tires, and rotors are expenses that are easy to predict and plan for. Paying for a motor replacement/rebuild on a 60,000 mile car would be disappointing.

RaisedOnPorsches' listing shows me what's above and below the water line. I'd still do a PPI.

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by Steve Tinker

So, carrying on with this theme and without hijacking driftguys thread, how much more would you pay $$$ wise for the S over base - everything else being equal in terms of condition, mileage, maintenance records etc ??
I would have thought that only enthusiastic buyers would know that the S has the bigger engine, Brembo's, 6 speed and so on. Many purchasers over here wouldn't have clue regarding the extras that come with an S model.....

Issue here is that its not just base over S. It's first generation 2.5 vs. second generation 2.7/3.2

The 2.5 has it merits, namely that with a few modifications and some more pricey mods (lighter wheels, exhaust,etc.) you can get a 2.5 down on weight to within striking distance of Spec racer, which is a very light car for such handling, reliablity and maintenance. Meanwhile in that 1999 you're in a very safe car with fairly straight forward upkeep. The best Porsche you race imho without breaking the kid's college fund. You also have a more harmonious 5 speed-engine mating. And of course its dual row IMS but that's nothing you can't address in a day with a 2.7 or 3.2 engine. But the 3.2 is still the best option if the 2.5 low miler from '99 and the 3.2 from '00 are somewhat close in price.
With the 3.2 you get better cylinder walls thus elminating at least one of the many ways these m96 engines fail, but that only seems to fail on 2.5 Boxsters and 3.4 Carreras that have low mileage or driven too gingerly.

And yes the brakes on the 3.2 are same as the 996 Carrera which are world class and by far the best you can get on any car under $100K. So a 3.2 is bargain Porsche as far as cost entry. Not all a bargain if you intend to drive it hard and long-term.

So to answer your question Steve I don't think the S commands much more additional value it just makes it much quicker to sell and that's a problem if you're trying to fetch maximum resale on a 2.5
That 2.5 better be a real cherry and come with some options. Litronics alone cost more than my first car and if you toss in 18" wheels and aero you could by my second car too.

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by BigShow

When (or if) I do buy a Porsche I’m going to use the lack of information, and the ticking time bomb IMS, as heavy leveraging tools to beat down the price. I’m further going to use the PPI results to try beat down the price more.

So, what can you do to make your Box stand out to a buyer like me? I don’t need to know that it has standard equipment, I don’t want to sort through that, it hides what’s unique. I want to know in order of preference:
Asking price
Mileage
Model year
Base or S
No kidding Great/Good/Fair/Poor condition assessment (I‘ll do a PPI so be accurate)
Private/Porsche Dealer/Major Dealer/Joe’s around the corner dealer
Available service records and by who
IMS replaced
RMS replaced
Miles on tires
Miles on brakes
Miles on rotors
Other replaced parts
Other enhancements like Audio, Radar detector
I really don’t want a car that someone has tweaked for more power

winner winner chicken dinner.

p.s.
I would add points to the PPI if it has the latest coolant cap. A car that's had the coolant tank/waterpump/coolant cap replaced as precautionary maintenance is a big peace of mind check box (enthusiast owned red flag).
Thus I would do a leak down test and not just the compression test to see what's up with the engine history.

[snakebite]

Originally Posted by Dlirium

If you look for a used boxster out here in SF bay area, you'd think they were made out of Gold! They are 20%- 30% HIGHER than KBB, and they stick with it...i don't know if there are just a bunch of suckers out here with more $$ than brains, or what, but they don't negotiate much.

Been watching the Bay Area Boxster market for a bit. The one thing that strikes me is how long these Boxsters sit on the market. Months. They just don't seem to be in any demand. Now if you have an early 911, they'll beat a path to your door to buy it, in any condition.

[BIGJake111]

selling points on getting my secific car was the glass rear window and the fact the waterpump was already taken care of! my car was 2 hours away so we knew if we took the time to drive and look at it we would likely be buying... definitly helped sell the car.