IMSB Seasonal Storage

[pjq]

04 S
Winter storage will soon be an issue for some of us.
I am finishing an engine rebuild and a LN IMS Upgrade (triple row).

I've read some arcticles on the IMSB and the most recent one by Pedro, again pointing out the fact that the IMSB is always partially lying in oil. The more time the bearing is lying in oil not moving or moves but at low rev's (garage queens) the greater the chance for future problems.
With the sealed bearing lying in your dirty engine oil for extended periods, its only time then the oil seeps past the seal leading to the the future problems we all talk about and fear, IMSB failures.

To the point - For those of us who lay their cars up every year for 5-6 months would it not be advisable to change the oil and filter before lay up but hold back 2 litres/quarts, thereby keeping our bearings free from lying in the oil? Or just drain off 2 litres before lay up to keep the sealed bearing free from the oil? Is 2 litres enough to get the oil level below the bearing?

Off course after lay up top up the oil, bring her up to temperature and drive it like hell, keep the revs up!

With the LN IMS Upgrade, is it a concern if my bearing is lying in engine oil for an extended period not moving?

[southernstar]

If the oil is clean I can't imagine how the IMSB can suffer additional deterioration by partially lying in it.

[tonycarreon]

the bearing doesn't sit in the oil pan (where holding back oil would decrease the level). the oil pedro is talking about is oil that's found its way into the shaft and sits against the backside of the bearing.

[ganseg]

Originally Posted by tonycarreon

the bearing doesn't sit in the oil pan (where holding back oil would decrease the level). the oil pedro is talking about is oil that's found its way into the shaft and sits against the backside of the bearing.

Relating to this, I was wondering after watching the video, what is the best way to get the oil in the IMS to be refreshed. Ie, after I change the oil, what would clear out the oil in the IMS and get new in there? Driving a couple of hours?

If so, then I would change the oil close to storage time, drive it for a couple of hours, then store it. I realize there would still be some unclean oil, but there is also the fact that i don't want to drive it in salt the next 6 months.

[BYprodriver]

The only way oil gets into the IMS is thru both IMSB seals. Once in the IMS it tends to stay there until the IMSB is replaced. Removing the outer IMSB seal helps get fresh oil to the bearing. Changing oil before long term storage is the best thing to do.

[ganseg]

So no significant amount of oil gets into the shaft from the other regular bearing?

[thom4782]

IMS seals degrade when they get whetted with oil that contains acids and other combustion byproducts. The best strategy to slow deterioration, that is minimize it, is to keep the oil fresh and clean. Many people change oil just before storing their cars as part of this approach.

[MitchSF]

Seems to me that the acid theory should be easy to prove even on an engine that suffered IMS failure, simply by sending the parts for analysis by a testing lab.

[Dave S.]

If you are doing an LN Engineering IMSB upgrade, there is no seal to worry about any longer.

[pjq]

04 S
OK I have to go drive my car again, pick up a magnetic drain plug, but before I go.

Its good to know the best preventive maintenance for our IMSB is, change oil frequently and change oil before putting away for long term storage.

On the matter of oil level does any one actually know where the oil level is relative to the IMSB?
Pelicans instructions, for IMSB replacement, tell us to have a drain pan ready when removing the chain tensioner plugs thats after having drained the oil and removed the filter. These chain tensioners are pretty close to being in the same plane as the bottom of the IMSB.
A rebuilt engine takes almost 11 quarts of oil. Normal oil change and filter is almost 9 quarts of oil, this is a healthy quantity of oil. Where is the oil level?

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by pjq

04 S
OK I have to go drive my car again, pick up a magnetic drain plug, but before I go.

Its good to know the best preventive maintenance for our IMSB is, change oil frequently and change oil before putting away for long term storage.

On the matter of oil level does any one actually know where the oil level is relative to the IMSB?
Pelicans instructions, for IMSB replacement, tell us to have a drain pan ready when removing the chain tensioner plugs thats after having drained the oil and removed the filter. These chain tensioners are pretty close to being in the same plane as the bottom of the IMSB.
A rebuilt engine takes almost 11 quarts of oil. Normal oil change and filter is almost 9 quarts of oil, this is a healthy quantity of oil. Where is the oil level?

The oil level is about 1/3 to 1/2 way up the IMS bearing when the car has sat for a bit.

[pjq]

JFP, If the oil level is above the base of the sealed bearing then wouldn't it minimize bearing failure risk to lower the oil level below the bearing for seasonal storage?

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by pjq

JFP, If the oil level is above the base of the sealed bearing then wouldn't it minimize bearing failure risk to lower the oil level below the bearing for seasonal storage?

Not really, oil intrusion into the bearing is a function of the seal hardening and failing, so it is going to flood either standing still or running down the road once the seal has failed. While lowering the oil may slow the process by some small amount, shorting the engine on oil volume is going to reduce the life of other components. Besides which, lowering and then raising the oil level is going to become tedious as well as offering little reward.

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by pjq

04 S
Winter storage will soon be an issue for some of us.
I am finishing an engine rebuild and a LN IMS Upgrade (triple row).

LNE uses triple row bearings on their rebuilds? Is this the same as the plain bearing in the IMS Solution?

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

LNE uses triple row bearings on their rebuilds? Is this the same as the plain bearing in the IMS Solution?

No, it is a special shaft and triple row ceramic bearing assembly that can only be done while the engine is apart. The plain bearing "Solution" only comes in the single row bearing size, uses a pressurized oil feed off the filter out line and has no moving parts whatsoever, and can be retrofitted to an assembled engine.

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

No, it is a special shaft and triple row ceramic bearing assembly that can only be done while the engine is apart. The plain bearing "Solution" only comes in the single row bearing size, uses a pressurized oil feed off the filter out line and has no moving parts whatsoever, and can be retrofitted to an assembled engine.

so why do the former? does this special shaft prevent other types of failure?

[pjq]

Perfectlap at the time I didn't have the choice.
After my IMSB failed and I was faced with a rebuild it became questionable if my IMS was even re-useable. (finding a second hand IMS wasn't easy at the time, I didn't want porsche's new IMS) I sent it to LN Engineering and fortunately they were able to work with it and upgrade it to the triple row and pin the sprockets to the shaft. At the end of the day I still have bearings, not sealed but still bearings, in an oil environment, engine oil. I'm not an engineer or mechanic but I don't like the idea of a sealed bearing in a liquid. I'm pretty sure its the only one in the whole engine. Most other things around this bearing are journal bearings, similar to The IMS Solution. Its just smooth steel and oil, if the oil stops flowing .... well the rest of the engine is also toasted, not because of the IMS Solution.

I was a few months to early for the IMS Solution and many miles away from an authorized installer.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

so why do the former? does this special shaft prevent other types of failure?

As PJQ mentioned, the triple bearing shaft existed prior to the "Solution" and had proven to be very strong. These were being used, albeit in small numbers, by those that were doing a total rebuild and wanted the best available. The triple row shaft also has pinned end sprockets, which eliminate any chance of the sprocket coming loose or moving, which does happen from time to time and cannot be addressed with the shaft in the motor during a retrofit. While Jake developed and perfected his "Solution" system, the existing dual row LN ceramics were proving to be pretty bullet proof, so he only designed the Solution for the single row engines, which were always the most problematic of the bunch. The Solution also addressed the concerns over having to replace the single row ceramic bearings periodically, but does it at a higher price tag. the triple row shaft can also be used in any M96/97 engine, regardless of what style it came with, because the triple is a compete shaft and bearing assembly; and by 2005-2006, the only replacement shaft (if you needed one) that you could get from Porsche was their "final solution" big bearing shaft, which has proved to be susceptible to the same style of failure as the units it replaced.

[Perfectlap]

Interesting.

Does the triple row shaft approach incorporate DOF? Otherwise how are its bearings serviced?

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

LNE uses triple row bearings on their rebuilds? Is this the same as the plain bearing in the IMS Solution?

LN does not build engines.

The IMS Solution was developed for my engine program, and was invented right here by Charles Navarro and I.

See the "Tech Forum" in Excellence Magazine in November of 2013 for a 3,000 word feature on the IMS Solution.