3.8 Replacement Motors

[Jager]

I am always on the hunt for another Porsche and I have noticed an alarming number of 2005 and 2006 Carrera S models with replaced engines. What is going-on with the 3.8L motor? Are the factory/dealer replacement engines better?

[Jake Raby]

They lose cylinders horribly die to longitundinal bore scuffing. Big reason for it, called improper skirt clearance with a forged piston.

When I see people" upgrading" to an OEM 3.8 I just shake my head.

[pk2]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

They lose cylinders horribly die to longitundinal bore scuffing. Big reason for it, called improper skirt clearance with a forged piston.

When I see people" upgrading" to an OEM 3.8 I just shake my head.

Whats your take on an 02 3.6 Carrera upgrade.

Regards, pk

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by pk2

Whats your take on an 02 3.6 Carrera upgrade.

Regards, pk

Upgrade? The 02-05 engines have the worst issues of all.

[The Radium King]

I was just reading on another forum where the 997 guys were referring to 2000 rpm as the "bore-scoring" zone. any truth to this? apply to us m96 guys too?

[pk2]

Originally Posted by The Radium King

I was just reading on another forum where the 997 guys were referring to 2000 rpm as the "bore-scoring" zone. any truth to this? apply to us m96 guys too?

How sloppy are these things that you get piston slap (scoring) at 2k. Is this a case where you hear about the 1% of disasters LOUD and all the other happy drivers are mum?


Regards, PK

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by The Radium King

I was just reading on another forum where the 997 guys were referring to 2000 rpm as the "bore-scoring" zone. any truth to this? apply to us m96 guys too?

An M97 is just an M96 with a different name.

[pk2]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

Upgrade? The 02-05 engines have the worst issues of all.

Like what?

[Jager]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

Upgrade? The 02-05 engines have the worst issues of all.

Hmmm... Making me think more about a Metzger motor car.

[Jake Raby]

These failures can happen at any mileage, low mileage cars have yet to be exempt from ANY of the 24 modes of failure I have documented.
I have an engine at the shop now that has 27K miles and lost a cylinder. Here is the photo album for that failure and a description:
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.644486948912437.1073741842.184464434914693&type=3

And here is what the cylinder looked like..
27K miles. I shake my head every time someone says "my car only has 30K miles". I am thinking the while time "wow, that just means it'll be a little cleaner when we strip it down to the crankshaft and build it the way it should have been from the factory after it scattered"



And the piston:

[Jager]

That is the strangest shaped piston I have ever seen... And the motor was still running??

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by Jager

That is the strangest shaped piston I have ever seen... And the motor was still running??

This engine ran absolutely fine.. Zero smoke, zero oil consumption and no cylinder symptoms, just a tick..tick..tick.

It fooled two dealerships and three other shops before the owner decided to ship it 1,000 miles to us. We diagnosed it in less than 30 minutes. Now he is getting a big bore and is part of our 13 month backlog!

[pk2]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

This engine ran absolutely fine.. Zero smoke, zero oil consumption and no cylinder symptoms, just a tick..tick..tick.

It fooled two dealerships and three other shops before the owner decided to ship it 1,000 miles to us. We diagnosed it in less than 30 minutes. Now he is getting a big bore and is part of our 13 month backlog!

It seems your saying these motors are crap. Do any, in your opinion, survive to 50k? I've no interest in dropping 10k into a $18k car. 28 grand, for what? That would buy something far more contemporary without any hassle I should think.

When did Porsche get their _hit together on these motors?

Regards, PK

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by pk2

It seems your saying these motors are crap. Do any, in your opinion, survive to 50k? I've no interest in dropping 10k into a $18k car. 28 grand, for what? That would buy something far more contemporary without any hassle I should think.

When did Porsche get their _hit together on these motors?

Regards, PK

No, just stating what we see routinely. You must understand that we do not see best case scenarios, we do not do normal work at a normal shop level. All that we see is extreme and has usually already been manipulated by other shops that don't have a clue, so we have to pick up the pieces and start from scratch.

What I was stating more than anything is the bigger, later engines are NOT any better than those that preceded them, contrary to popular belief. These engines have proven to be some of the most problematic with the most failure modes.

All M96 and M97 engines are created equally and none are better or worse than others, it seems.

The DFI 9a1 engines have been our focus for the past 3 years already, I recently tore into one with 4100 miles to carry out our big bore process that increases displacement from 3.4 to 4.2 liters. The engine had no symptoms and was being built bigger for "no reason at all". We carried out a "before dyno" prior to disassembly so we could have a comparative after our work is finished. The dyno results were the lowest we'd seen from any DFI 3.4 Cayman spec engine and even a track engine with 14K miles on it (all on track) had beaten it. Upon disassembly I found two missing O rings from the oil system, a broken piston ring, scored cylinders and worn out lifters. I have documented all of this, and the engine had never even had its first oil service and had never been to the track.

BTW- We currently have 13 months worth of engines to create and of those only 5-6 of the cars have more street value than what is being spent on my reconstructed engines. The people that look our way have a different way of placing a value on their car. Since 1992 I have been building engines for customers that are spending more on my engine than the entire car is worth- thats nothing new with Porsches. The reason they don't care is because they never sell the car, so what the vehicle is worth is only determined by how much time in service it gives them.

I have a 2014 GT3 on the way here and it will have only 3-4K miles on it when we strip the engine down to make it as large as efficiently possible. We'll know more about it in just a few months and I am positive we'll have our hands inside one of these before anyone outside the factory (again).

[pk2]

I Guess i'm going to listen carefully for the slapping noise before I buy.If it's not endemic,maybe it's a good motor, the one in five that works right. I just want a reliable Box.

I had a super-charged 2.5l. Despite nay-sayers, I had no problems, It never blew and was an -elll of lot of fun

[patssle]

The competitors that have grown on our coat tails are learning this one by one and taking themselves out one by one.

Can I ask who your (good) competitors are? I see your name among the Porsche boards (914world, Pelican) but never anybody else. Surely there are other people working on our engines too.

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by patssle

Can I ask who your (good) competitors are? I see your name among the Porsche boards (914world, Pelican) but never anybody else. Surely there are other people working on our engines too.

They are all still learning. The mistakes we see being made prove that as they are very elementary and I made them the first time I built one of these engines.

In my last two WTI classes we have had a competitor show up and attend the class, which is always interesting.

Lots of shops that never considered working with these engines back when we started this craziness are now doing the work because they have to. They are the guys that laughed at us years ago for working with "disposable engines" but today they are fighting to stay alive and they are doing everything they can, including trying to create these engines.

Just look through the magazines to see who is doing this work, you'll find an ad from everyone of them and you won't find an ad from us.. Why advertise when you have a year's worth of work?

The parts bill on one of my engines is 14K+, these "other" engines are sold completely for less than that, so their is no comparison and therefore no competition.

They might now what we know today in 5 years from now, if they bust their ass and continue copying our products.

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by pk2

I Guess i'm going to listen carefully for the slapping noise before I buy.If it's not endemic,maybe it's a good motor, the one in five that works right. I just want a reliable Box.

I had a super-charged 2.5l. Despite nay-sayers, I had no problems, It never blew and was an -elll of lot of fun

BTW- I was in Tustin last weekend instructing my Porsche M96 Engine Mechanical Class, I could have listened to it for you.

Remember- NO NOISE IS A GOOD NOISE!