Would you have gotten PDK if they offered it on the 986?

[pothole]

Originally Posted by NoGaBiker

What? Not sure if you understand how a PDK works, but it most certainly does allow for manual changes. You move a stick and the gear changes. Only when you move the stick. Not before, not after, and not without you moving the stick. That is a manual (Latin: manualis: "of or belonging to the hand") action, not an automatic one.

Now I am no apologist for the PDK and I absolutely prefer the 6-speed, but the PDK does, in fact, "allow for manual changes." It also has an automatic mode that allows you to make no manual changes.

From reading various posts I'm not sure a lot of people understand this.

Yeah, I think it's you who doesn't understand how PDK works.

You do realise that when you move that "stick" all you are doing is sending a signal to a computer. Nothing you manually manipulate is of any consequence. You may as well be pressing a small button.

In a manual gearbox, it's the movement of your hand directly connected to mechanisms that deselects one gear and selects another. Same for the clutch, albeit the physical connection is hydraulic.

There is nothing manual about PDK. You press a button, a signal is sent to a computer, it decides what to do. And then it does it.

PDK does not allow for manual changes. It does the changes.

Get it, now?

[shadrach74]

Originally Posted by pothole

Yeah, I think it's you who doesn't understand how PDK works.

You do realise that when you move that "stick" all you are doing is sending a signal to a computer. Nothing you manually manipulate is of any consequence. You may as well be pressing a small button.

In a manual gearbox, it's the movement of your hand directly connected to mechanisms that deselects one gear and selects another. Same for the clutch, albeit the physical connection is hydraulic.

There is nothing manual about PDK. You press a button, a signal is sent to a computer, it decides what to do. And then it does it.

PDK does not allow for manual changes. It does the changes.

Get it, now?

I've gotten it from the get go. I see your point, but you've missed mine. What I get now is that this is a semantic argument. It's no matter, we can agree that we both prefer to operate the right pedal ourselves...

[pothole]

Originally Posted by shadrach74

I've gotten it from the get go. I see your point, but you've missed mine. What I get now is that this is a semantic argument. It's no matter, we can agree that we both prefer to operate the right pedal ourselves...

What did I miss?

[shadrach74]

Originally Posted by pothole

What did I miss?

PDK has all of the components (with some extras) of a traditional manual transmission except for the interface, which is automated...

[pothole]

Originally Posted by shadrach74

PDK has all of the components (with some extras) of a traditional manual transmission except for the interface, which is automated...

And thus it's an automatic.

The "manual" refers to the mode of operation or the "interface" as you put it. Not the design of the components.

Do not think I missed anything.

[shadrach74]

Originally Posted by pothole

And thus it's an automatic.

The "manual" refers to the mode of operation or the "interface" as you put it. Not the design of the components.

Do not think I missed anything.

So there are no automatics with manual interfaces?

My forehead hurts... You win! Well done.

[pothole]

Originally Posted by shadrach74

So there are no automatics with manual interfaces?

My forehead hurts... You win! Well done.

To be honest, not sure what happens with an old school torque converter when you use the selector change gear.

But re PDK, the answer is simple. There are no manual changes of gears, no manual interface. At most you send a signal to a computer and the computer decides what to do and when.

It's reasonable enough to call it "manual" mode when your pressing buttons to request gear changes from the computer, just for the sake of semantic simplicity. But there's nothing actually manual about the process of changing gears.

What I don't get is why people are so desperate to claim that there's a manual element to PDK.

[shadrach74]

Originally Posted by pothole

Yeah, I think it's you who doesn't understand how PDK works.

You do realise that when you move that "stick" all you are doing is sending a signal to a computer. Nothing you manually manipulate is of any consequence. You may as well be pressing a small button.

In a manual gearbox, it's the movement of your hand directly connected to mechanisms that deselects one gear and selects another. Same for the clutch, albeit the physical connection is hydraulic.

There is nothing manual about PDK. You press a button, a signal is sent to a computer, it decides what to do. And then it does it.

PDK does not allow for manual changes. It does the changes.

Get it, now?

It only "decides what to do" in so much that it decides precisely how much to blip the throttle. It does not over ride the driver unless the driver does something stupid like try to make a downshift that would exceed redline. It is quite possible to be ham fisted with PDK and smack into the rev limiter.

The automatic on my lexus has a manual linkage to the tranny via the shifter. If I manually select first there is a physical linkage between the selector and the tranny. By your logic, is my GS 400 a manual? If so, you should let Lexus know, because they never offered the car with a manual transmission...

I take that the air shifters utilized on racing machines are automatics in your mind?

[NoGaBiker]

Originally Posted by pothole

Yeah, I think it's you who doesn't understand how PDK works.

You do realise that when you move that "stick" all you are doing is sending a signal to a computer. Nothing you manually manipulate is of any consequence. You may as well be pressing a small button.

In a manual gearbox, it's the movement of your hand directly connected to mechanisms that deselects one gear and selects another. Same for the clutch, albeit the physical connection is hydraulic.

There is nothing manual about PDK. You press a button, a signal is sent to a computer, it decides what to do. And then it does it.

PDK does not allow for manual changes. It does the changes.

Get it, now?

I get it now no more or less than I did before. Whether the control action is initiated by moving a stick that is attached to a gear box, moving a stick that is attached to electronics that are attached to a gear box, or pushing a button that is attached to a gearbox, the point of "manual control" is this: when you tell the gearbox to do something, it does it, when I say, how I say. If the computer would rather be in 4th and I'd like to be in 6th, I win. It does what I say, immediately. That's manual control. Both by the linguistics definition of the word (as I pointed out so elequently above) and by the notional definition long affixed by automotive junkies such as your- and myself. This is why even though you could "control" a Tiptronic with buttons or a stick, it wasn't a manual -- it took your "suggestion" and eventually got around to going to that gear as long as it didn't really think you shouldn't be there.

I can put my house thermostat on automatic and let it do what it needs to, or I can switch it to manual and take control of the temperature -- all with the same set of buttons talking to the same logic board. I don't have to go down to the furnace room and shovel coal for it to be manual control of the temperature in my house.

And on the opposite side of the spectrum, I have a 68 Cadillac convertible with an automatic TH 400 transmission. There is not the first sign of a logic board or even of a wire going into that transmission. Nothing between me and the transmission that's not mechanical. I can shift it manually with a stick that comes out of the steering wheel -- no buttons. But this does not a manual transmission make. It is an automatic NOT because it has an electronic interface between me and it, but because it doesn't shift with precision, delivering the gear I order up immediately upon my ordering it.

Cheers!

[pothole]

Originally Posted by NoGaBiker

I get it now no more or less than I did before. Whether the control action is initiated by moving a stick that is attached to a gear box, moving a stick that is attached to electronics that are attached to a gear box, or pushing a button that is attached to a gearbox, the point of "manual control" is this: when you tell the gearbox to do something, it does it, when I say, how I say. If the computer would rather be in 4th and I'd like to be in 6th, I win. It does what I say, immediately. That's manual control. Both by the linguistics definition of the word (as I pointed out so elequently above) and by the notional definition long affixed by automotive junkies such as your- and myself. This is why even though you could "control" a Tiptronic with buttons or a stick, it wasn't a manual -- it took your "suggestion" and eventually got around to going to that gear as long as it didn't really think you shouldn't be there.

I can put my house thermostat on automatic and let it do what it needs to, or I can switch it to manual and take control of the temperature -- all with the same set of buttons talking to the same logic board. I don't have to go down to the furnace room and shovel coal for it to be manual control of the temperature in my house.

And on the opposite side of the spectrum, I have a 68 Cadillac convertible with an automatic TH 400 transmission. There is not the first sign of a logic board or even of a wire going into that transmission. Nothing between me and the transmission that's not mechanical. I can shift it manually with a stick that comes out of the steering wheel -- no buttons. But this does not a manual transmission make. It is an automatic NOT because it has an electronic interface between me and it, but because it doesn't shift with precision, delivering the gear I order up immediately upon my ordering it.

Cheers!

Except for the gearbox doesn't change gear "when and how you say" with PDK. You've no control at all over the selection of the gears or the actuation of the clutch. The computer controls everything.

You have no control over how the different parts of the process are orchestrated, how smooth or jerky the change is or anything else. It's no more manual than pressing a button to turn the car on after which it does everything itself.

You have the illusion of manual control because the computer usually agrees that it's OK to change gear when you press the button. But try changing down at 7,000rpm and you'll find out exactly how manual PDK is. Yes, that's a safety feature to protect the engine. But it illustrates that it's the computer that makes the final call over whether to change gear at all, let alone how the gear change is executed.

PDK is an automatic gearbox. Why are people so scared to accept that? It's miles better than a manual in many regards. Why not embrace that?

[NoGaBiker]

Originally Posted by pothole

PDK is an automatic gearbox. Why are people so scared to accept that? Why not embrace that?

Yes, yes, you are right. My fear is behind me. I embrace the truth.

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by pothole

You have the illusion of manual control because the computer usually agrees that it's OK to change gear when you press the button. But try changing down at 7,000rpm and you'll find out exactly how manual PDK is. Yes, that's a safety feature to protect the engine. But it illustrates that it's the computer that makes the final call over whether to change gear at all, let alone how the gear change is executed.

very interesting. I guess it makes sense to me looking back now at the first PDK's which had a very distinct "lag". It was addressed in the S models for some cars where I believe drivers, Cayman S specifically, reported that the gear change was much prompter. I guess you could say that lag highlighted the dynamic, as you point out, of the driver "requesting" the shift, the computer mulling it over, and then obliging the human a delayed shift. Wholly unacceptable in a sports car imho. Since then, PDK apparently has been refined to the point where you've been duped into believing that you are actually shifting the gear because the computer is much better at creating that "virtual reality" of sorts. Purely mechanical vs. automated.
Thanks for illustrating this big change in driving that few have really fully considered.

[shadrach74]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

very interesting. I guess it makes sense to me looking back now at the first PDK's which had a very distinct "lag". It was addressed in the S models for some cars where I believe drivers, Cayman S specifically, reported that the gear change was much prompter. I guess you could say that lag highlighted the dynamic, as you point out, of the driver "requesting" the shift, the computer mulling it over, and then obliging the human a delayed shift. Wholly unacceptable in a sports car imho. Since then, PDK apparently has been refined to the point where you've been duped into believing that you are actually shifting the gear because the computer is much better at creating that "virtual reality" of sorts. Purely mechanical vs. automated.
Thanks for illustrating this big change in driving that few have really fully considered.

After driving a 2012 Panamera with PDK on a number of occasions, I can tell you that it is faster than any human could ever be.Think simi-auto vs bolt action. My biggest complaint is that 1st is so short on the 7 spd that the driver has to ultra quick on the up-shift to avoid bouncing repeatedly against the rev limiter. It is much like shifting a sport bike, except that every down shift is perfectly rev matched for for smooth and instant engagement. If maximum performance is the goal, there is no question that PDK is superior. If maximum fun is the goal, I'm still a fan of a traditional manual tranny but it's close. On the one hand, PDK is very gratifying in that you can accomplish things that you can't with a traditional manual (like up-shifting at 6000rpm in the middle of a power-slide)...on the other hand, a well executed heel & toe at the right time is gratifying in that you know you and you alone are driving the car well.