Go Porsche!

[Brucelee]

Nice Job, SD!

I took one of the Powers surveys aways back when I owned a new Lexus. Seemed fine to me!

[Brucelee]

I guess BMW didn't pay off JD Power!



Mini to Adjust Shocks, Engine After Complaints
MF Staff / May 10, 2003
This comes via "dco43054" at MINI2 and Jeff Green at Bloomberg News:


Detroit, May 7 -- Bayerische Motoren Werke AG's Mini brand, the fourth-worst performer in the 2003 quality survey by J.D. Power & Associates, is adding heavier oil to its shock absorbers to create a smoother ride and reprogramming the engines to prevent stalling in an effort to address customer complaints.

The company, which sold 24,590 Minis in the U.S. last year, also is sending special coffee mugs to customers after owners complained that many cups won't fit in holders built into the car, said Jack Pitney, general manager for the Mini brand in the U.S.

The Mini was fourth worst among 37 vehicle brands ranked by the number of problems in the first three months of ownership, according to a survey by J.D. Power. The score of 166 problems per 100 cars was higher than the industry average of 133 and meant the BMW group score slipped to 124 from 116 last year.

"We're not happy with the results but we're taking action,'' Pitney said in an interview at the Automotive Press Association lunch in Detroit.

The top complaint among consumers was about the Mini's cup holder, followed by complaints that the engine hesitates or stalls, according to J.D. Power. Owners also complained about a noisy fan motor, wind noise and an uncomfortable ride, the survey found. The 17-year-old survey is watched by automakers because it can influence consumer purchases.

Pitney said he expects to sell 25,000 to 30,000 Minis in the U.S. this year. BMW, known for luxury vehicles, starts Mini prices at $16,975 and wants the cars to attract buyers who haven't previously bought the automaker's models. About 86 percent of Mini buyers hadn't purchased a BMW before, Pitney said. The Mini Cooper is intended to be the first of several models for the brand.

BMW, which has sold 11,304 Mini cars through April, plans to limit sales to about same as in 2002 to keep demand high, Pitney said. The short supply contributes to an Automobile Lease Guide estimate that 2002 Minis will retain about 61 percent of their value after three years, the highest rate for any U.S. vehicle from the model year.

The original Mini debuted in 1959 in the U.K. and was the inspiration for the naming of the miniskirt, according to BMW. The tiny car was fashionable in the U.K. during the 1960s, attracting buyers such as the Beatles' Paul McCartney and Ringo Starr, the automaker said. About 10,000 Minis were sold in the U.S. from 1960 until 1967.

[lexuspilot]

I went to school with JD Powers. He was cool.

[MNBoxster]

WOW,

Much more protest than even I expected.

It is pretty well known within the Marketing community that if you want a favorable survey with which to advertise your product, you go to JD Powers. I have had clients tell me this as well.

OK, consider this: You are a Marketing Company and want to produce surveys for sale to Manufacturers. What do you do? Well, first, you design a set of criteria about your company which gives the allution of credibility. You have follow-up forms which are sent out to past and prospective buyers. They are all tabulated, right? Hmmm... well, they must be right? I mean they have to right?

Oh, and you must fund your surveys independently of the Manufacturers, otherwise people won't believe them - Easy, I'll put out my money and then recoup it once the company buys my survey - that'll work. I can't believe those Consumer Reports guys, selling a magazine to fund their surveys, what idiots! If only I could get around that Non-profit thing, oh well, you can't have everything, maybe people won't notice.

But wait, what if the companies don't want to buy my surveys? Then what? This survey business is expensive, salaries, printing, postage, etc. I better concentrate on surveys they will buy. Too many unsold surveys and we're circling the drain...

OK, I'm a company looking for some favorable survey data to include in advertising my product... Oh look, here is a company with a veritable smorgasbord of surveys...Hmm... let's see... Oh no, not that one, it says we're #8... "Hey how come we're only #8?" "OK... but what if you only include people with 1 year Post Graduate education, and say earning between $85k & $125k? Now we're #6?... What if we only include singles?... #4? OK, now what if we only include those living in major metropolitan areas? #2..? Better, but what if we narrow it further to those in major metropolitan areas on the eastern seaboard? #1? That's Great!! "I'll Take It"! But wait, culling the responses this way drops our sample from 30,000 to only 16,000, well we don't have to use a specific number of responses, I guess it'll be OK.

But this could never happen right? Advertising doesn't ever lie, I mean, I did lose 6 lbs. and my hair is filling in a little (I think), my dick does look bigger to me, and that TV Dinner does sorta taste like Mom used to make, and that last Yugo? It was probably made on a Friday, not Yugo's fault at all, those darn UAW workers...This is maybe my main point, these surveys are merely Advertising, they are there merely to add credence to a product. The data is not compiled from professionals, it's from ordinary people. These people have already made their Buyer's decision, it's Human Nature that they would be more inclined to confirm their earlier decision than to contradict it.


Why are the cars rated #1 by JD Powers rarely the sales leaders in their categories? I guess people just didn't see that darn survey...too bad for them, the fools.

I am not here to try and convince you. You may choose to believe me or not. I merely passed on what I know, use it as you will.

And, I have absolutely no axe to grind with JD Power, I think what they've done is brilliant! Further, I am no conspiracy buff - I believe that Elvis is dead, that Nixon did purposely erase the 18 min. of tape, that there are no UFOs and that OJ did stab his wife

They're making a ton of money for both themselves and their clients. They're generating tax revenue and jobs. And they're doing it all legally!

I have no quarrel with the piece about BMW responding to Post-Consumer polling, this is just another service provided by JD Power. I once worked for Hyatt Hotels, and we used a 3rd Party firm to conduct customer satisfaction polling because the expense and burden of doing it in-house was too great. Many companies perform these services, chief among them would be Harris Polling.

But, there is a distinction to be made here: This data is produced for the Manufacturer's consumption, that is very different from producing surveys for potential buyers.

Where else, besides advertising, does the JD Power data get distributed? The CNN and Magazine news pieces? Well, they are not validating the data, they're just reporting what the survey said. The fact is, there is no validation, they simple present it for you to accept (it's fair to assume they do not present it for you to disbelieve).

I simply won't use them as a source of information when making purchasing decisions for all the reasons I've already outlined; you may do as you wish.

But, whenever a company sells survey data for profit, no matter how you disguise the process, that material cannot be seen as anything but suspect. It's your money, spend it wisely! PEACE!

Happy Motoring!...Jim'99

[Brucelee]

"Why are the cars rated #1 by JD Powers rarely the sales leaders in their categories? I guess people just didn't see that darn survey...too bad for them, the fools."


Lexus, Toyota, Porsche are not sales leaders in their catagories?

Hmmm, you may want to reconsider that statement.

Re: Your entire post above, you continue to evade the questions I asked you earlier. Instead, you simply allude to how one MIGHT shave the edges of rigorous research.

To me, JD Powers conducts attitude surveys with customers based on their experiences with their cars. I don't think Powers misrepresents this fact at all.

Nor do I think the car makers misrepresent what the Powers data is. If I finished up leading a category, you can bet I would advertise that fact.

Consumer reports does the exact same thing as Powers. They ask the customers what service was required on their cars and report that data in black and red dots. How is this MORE SCIENTIFIC than Powers?

I guess I fail to see the difference.

Last question, why did you underline FOR PROFIT in your post.

Does being for profit make them suspect in your view?

[cfos]

I hope no one takes offense to what I am about to say, but I love a "good" argument. I do research for a living and in the scientific community, surveys are not science. People lie and/or change their minds. Philosophically, surveys and peoples response to surveys often fall to an "appeal to authority". They really don't tell you anything other than one person's (or the summation of many people's) opinion.

Example: I took my wife to a Yankee game last month -- the one where they came back and scored 5 runs in the bottom of the 9th against the Royals. If asked, I would say that it was the best game I ever saw. The hotdogs were better, the air was clean, the seats were great, yada yada yada. Now, if the survey was conducted before the 9th, I was ready to leave early and I would have said how crappy our seats were, how I hated the 2 bratty, uncontrolled kids who kept kicking my seat while their parents held strictly to the non-invasion form of parenting, why did the Yankees sign Matt Lawton, etc.... you see the point? Surveys are subjective.



While I appreciate all of the posts from MNboxster who seems very knowledgable -- and who knows, I may bump into you if you are going to the U2 show t'night - You posed this in your most recent post:

"OK, consider this: You are a Marketing Company and want to produce surveys for sale to Manufacturers. What do you do? Well, first, you design a set of criteria about your company which gives the allution of credibility. You have follow-up forms which are sent out to past and prospective buyers. They are all tabulated, right? Hmmm... well, they must be right? I mean they have to right?"

You also posted this as your first post in this thread:

"I am a Founder of an Internet Marketing Firm, I know full well who JD Powers is and what they do."

Now, while I personally don't give a rat's you-know-what about JD Powers, my question is more fundamental:

Are you giving an unbiased opinion?

Sure, I read this:

"Why are the cars rated #1 by JD Powers rarely the sales leaders in their categories? I guess people just didn't see that darn survey...too bad for them, the fools.

I am not here to try and convince you. You may choose to believe me or not. I merely passed on what I know, use it as you will.

And, I have absolutely no axe to grind with JD Power, I think what they've done is brilliant! Further, I am no conspiracy buff - I believe that Elvis is dead, that Nixon did purposely erase the 18 min. of tape, that there are no UFOs and that OJ did stab his wife

They're making a ton of money for both themselves and their clients. They're generating tax revenue and jobs. And they're doing it all legally!"

So, maybe, I'm thinkin' you really don't have the axe to grind and are trying to enlighten people as to the truth behind JD Powers. Sort of a modern-day "scratchy-throat", since we know you aren't "deep throat". Regardless, let's get back to the topic. We are talking about a survey. A person who invests heavily in something will likely rate it much higher than it actually is in order to psychologically justify it's purchase -- This isn't new and is one of the main reasons people stay in fraternities; why else go through hazing, right? So, may we hypothesize that, from what we know, people are not always honest. Let's be truthful: How many people say they "truly" exercise when sitting on the table at the doctor's office? Hmmm? Do 2-3 cigars/cigarettes/month constitute smoking? Do we really eat the "healthy" diet? And what do we say...? I'm sure some people are brutally honest, but I have my doubts about everyone else.

I want to thank people for reading my rambling. It's really been a nice outlet. My concluding remarks are this:

If people are going to go in a purchase a car based on a JD Powers survey, let them. Obviosuly, these are people in favor of a big(ger) government since they can't make a decision on their own and can't do research for themselves, so they are better left to the opinions of others rather than trying to come up with their own. As for everyone else, well if you car happens to be the one that is #1 this week, Bully for you! Hopefully, your was built on a Wednesday, since statistics tell us that cars built on Wednesdays are the most reliable.

[Brucelee]

As a car dealer, I can tell you that there is NOTHING scientific about the way folks buy a Porsche. They may tell you that and they may act that way, but this is an emotional purchase all the way!

If you don't believe me, pick up an issue of your local PCA chapters magazine. These folks come across like children having fun with the new toy, which of course they are!

Let the good time roll!

[cfos]

Brucelee: You are a wise master, indeed. A Porsche purchase is about as scientific as a survey is accurate. My porsche purchase was purely emotional, although I like to justify the expense of the car to the science of porsche construction:

"It's a very well made car!"


"After reading the brochure/pamplet, I can't understand how anyone would not build a mid-engine car"

P.S. Ugh! I just re-read my earlier post. I am so sorry for the punctuation errors and typos.