Porsche Survival
 

Just thought I would start a conversation to get some thoughts about the viability of Porsche continuing as a car company and especially if the Boxster can survive as a continuing model. I know sales are up in 2011 vs 2012 for world wide sales of all products but here are some facts. According to the new Panaroma magazine, (which some of you may get) Porsche sales for December 2011 took a nose dive with Boxster sales being off 72%!! They only sold 38 cars nation wide for the month. Cayman sales were off 40% with 67 sold. If sales don't rebound soon for these models can they continue to make these models or at very least can dealers continue to inventory and import the boxster. Not to even start a comparison, because I love my boxster, but will the new Subaru BRZ and Scion FR-S going to be Boxster killers. I know they will compete more with the Mazda MX-5 but with a price of around $25,000 and a 200 hp boxer engine they will sell like hotcakes. Who is the NEW Boxster customer? At $75,000 to $90,000 for a 2 seat sports car it most certainly is not me! If I am going to pay that much for a sports car it would be a 911 that is 2 years old. For most of us here I don't think this discussion in a big deal because most seem to own Boxters that are more that 5 years old, but I would hate to see our beloved model go by the wayside. I only know if my business sales were down that much, even for one month, there would be a lot of meetings taking place and a lot of heads rolling.

Just a concerned owner.

Subaru BRZ and Scion FR-S are not convertibles.

disagree about the subaru/scion competing with the Boxster.....those cars are SLOW, the new Boxster is definitely not slow in any sense of the word, plus the build quality of a Porsche is on a whole different level.

that being said when I get back into the country early next year I am considering trading my '02 S in on a new, low optioned base Boxster or a CPO 987

I wouldn't mind if the Boxster was discontinued at all. It saves me from watching them continually ruin it. In fact, Porsche can go out of business completely now. Their cars are too heavy and big to be sports cars and the trucks are, well, trucks, so the old Porsche is long gone anyway.

I certainly did not insinuate that the Subaru BRZ is on the same level with a Boxster. My point is that if you are between 20 and 40 years old and raising a family you probably are not in the market for a new Boxster unless your rich and want a third car garage queen. Does Porsche need to have a $40,000 to $50,000 sports car to compete in the market place. Maybe a 4 cylinder? The younger crowd will go for the BRZ because of cost not because of build quality. They don't care as much about the name PORSCHE. Give Subaru a year and the BRZ will be made as a rag top.

I think they'll do OK. They can survive selling 125 in a normal month of Dec in the US I think they'll make it on 38. This car isn't their big money maker anyway. From what dealers were telling me they couldn't get enough of them in, and when they got an 'S' it sold. A lot of people won't wait for a car to be built and if what they want isn't in the showroom they don't buy. The other thing is I'm guessing a good percentage of folks considering a Boxster as their next purchase are now aware the new 981 is coming this early summer. I'm also guessing (or IMO) most folks who buy Boxsters wouldn't be looking at Scion, at least not for the same reason. I would take both a 987 and a Scion FR-S in my garage, but I would never compare them.

I'm not sure how much it is about competing...but you ask a good question. I'm thinking it is more about brand loyalty and brand name recognition. I started with a 'C' class Benz, loved the brand and moved up to an 'E' class (both were new). I'm thinking I'll own several more Porsches in my life, and maybe a new one someday.

First, recent Boxster sales are down because most potiential buyers (like all of us current Boxster owners) already know that the new 981 model is on the way later this year. This is the reason why car mfg's hate spy photos - sales tank as soon as pic's of the new model hit the internet. Also, we're in the middle of the biggest economic recession since the depression. Boxster sales will recover just fine once the new model is out and the economy starts to recover. In the meantime, Porsche will be quite happy selling $100K 991's and Panamera's.

As for the BRZ/FR-S, I don't think that they will sell like hotcakes. First, the 2 seat coupe is a very limited market which is why Toyota and Subaru had to share the development costs to justify building the car in the first place. And second, I can't see the younger generation abandoning their love of the WRX STi and Mitsu EVO any time soon.

+1 and the prices are going up and up.:mad:

The Boxster is irrelevant. It's all about the Cayenne, and probably soon the little SUV (Cajun - whatever they will call it) will be a best seller.

they will sell a lot of the new boxsters that i will guarantee .

It continues to kill me that if you want a new CaymanS..................nobody has any for sale. 3 dealerships here in the greater Tampa/St. Pete area and theres one to look at. Go on AutoTrader and see what the used car inventory looks like country wide for 2009+ Cars. There just aren't any to buy . Tons of 911's. If Porsche wants to sell cars.....they need to build a few more.
Agreed also.......why would you buy a 2012 BoxsterS when the new redesigned 2013 will be available in a few months? Boxster and Caymans are not going anywhere.

I disagree Ryan, Caymans and Boxsters are available but many are seriously over priced because of Porsche's gap in availability, I'll bet they have a lot of pissed off dealers, not that they care a bit. What I believe will be sitting a long while are the base units in each car. As for why buy old versus new model, well speaking for myself I don't like the new look, especially the gaps by the top. Furthermore, all the options and the prices will be higher, I'm truly happy to have grabbed a spyder before the new year.


PS You like Caymans? Check out Hennessey in Atlanta, I'm pretty sure it was him, the has three Cayman R's on the lot but you'll have to dig deep if you want one.

I agree with blue2000s, Porsche has turn the cars into luxury over sized 2 seater's. They need to get back to basics and produce a fun sorts car. Then again they are putting all the money into taking over VW.:cheers:

Porsche has gone from a motorsports company that made sports cars to a street car company who makes expensive factory race cars.

They ceased to make mostly Sports cars a couple years ago. They are more of a luxury sedan and SUV maker now. Sports cars a small part of their product line up. big news for them is release of the new Macan SUV. Not a lighter better mpg more affordable sports car.

Although this has happened across most manufacturers. Seems to me the sports car generations who fueled British, Italian, Japanese and German roadster craze are dying off. New generations don't seem to be intersted in sports cars as much as technology etc.

One thing I will say is Porsche has left us guys who are enthusiasts withmoderate budgets to go after old used Porsches or align to other companies who offer sports cars at reasonable prices. I left the Porsche fold after 35 years last year when I bought my Nissan 370z. Nissan seems very engaged in grassroots motor sports than Porsche is now.

The aftermarket for my 370z is so much better than anything I could do with my Boxster.

Just a thought...are the advances in technology so bad? Cars are safer, faster, handle better, likely will be more reliable and maybe last longer. Haven't folks been upset with each new iteration of a model. I understand to sell cars to a larger public they offer lots of comforts and gadgets that I know I as a roadster owner really wouldn't want, but then I likely wouldn't be driving it daily. Doesn't some of the increase in size and advances in performance safety come from the racing cars anyway?

I donno I like the change, it gives us all a historical selection of cars to choose from. I wonder if it is true that Porsche really doesn't care about their sport car lines, they put a huge commitment and risk into such change.

Porsche is evolving and I would not read too much into the slow sales for December because they knew that people would wait to buy the new 991 or at least see it before making a decision.

As for the SUVs and the Panamera, I would be happy to have any of them, I am considering the new Macan instead of my Range Rover. This does not lessen my desire for a GT3 in any way at all. Actually I would be happy to have an all Porsche fleet some day.

The new 991 is no heavier than the outgoing 993 was in 1998. So I'm not exactly seeing where the "getting heavier" part is coming into play. Sure, the car is bigger and more powerful, but weighs about the same as the last of the aircooleds did. That's pretty amazing.

It makes very, very good sense for Porsche to offer the Cayenne and Panamera. By having higher volume vehicles, it allows them to have profits to still continue their business of producing sportscars. To me, if Porsche kept with the 911 and Boxster only, they might not be doing very well at all, if they would still exist.

for the low numbers in Dec. I just spoke to a Porsche dealer today and he said they quit ordering them due to the change.

They already have a waiting list on the new body style. He feels that the new Boxster will be on a six month wait or more once they arrive.

Also a side note he just received word that Lotus is in the early stages of five new modelsfor 2014. A lowerend starter and 4higher end to compete with 911 and fer,lambis, etc..

It will be cool to see what lotus comes up with, although I didn't like the Evora front that much. I wonder if Fiat will come to play? Believe it or not when I was in Italy Fiat had some badass cars. One that looked like an NSX with a twin cam turbo and one that looked like the early Boxster and actually came to market before the Boxster. They are already advertising the 500 Abarth which will be an interesting review read.

I'll believe this when is see it. I have a friend that ordered his 991 in early Jan, it was built on Feb 12th and is waiting to get on a boat for a pre-March 15th delivery. Sounds like dealer talk to me :). Ten days ago when Paramount had the unveiling of the 991 I asked the owner about the 981, he said he didn't have much info on it, I asked if i can get on the list to order one (I was just bull ****************ting) but he said I don't know when I can start ordering so I don't have a list yet.

The 991 was being driving in Europe long before it could be ordered here. I'm wondering if Boxster will be the same. If not, in that case I could see orders to take delivery could be long.

Interesting that "more fun" didn't make your list... That's the problem with "technology"

3200 pounds is a heavy car, In 1995 or in 1012.

The 991 is about 300 pounds heavier than the 996, by the way.

3200lbs is lightweight by today's standards....
 

Cars have not been lighter in a long time (since the 80's). All the early 90's sports cars (300zx, supra, 3000gt/stealth, vette, viper) were 3000+ lbs and many of them were much closer to 3500. The nsx and a few ferrari's were some of the few that were around the 3000 lb mark. I am a huge advocate for cars getting lighter (~2800) as I think it would do wonders for fuel economy and their would be no need for cars to have 400+ hp to have the performance they have today but it is not going to happen until people are content to do without navigation, backup cameras, A/C in the seats and glovebox, etc that they have come to expect of cars at this price point. When you can get many of those items on a kia or hyundai, it makes no sense not to have them on a car that costs 4-5 times as much. I am not fond of the trend of the 911 and boxster getting larger with each generation but will live with it as long as the weight stays the same. Porsche still builds some of the lightest cars on the road. Just check out the weight of a lamborghini murcielago or ferrari 599....they are anything but light weight and have a lot more exotic materials in them than any porsche currently in production. Porsche is doing what it has to do to sell cars....no one will buy a stripped down 911 or boxster in volume numbers...at least not at the prices they are selling at now. If you lower the price and the sales go up, then you anger those that think you are cheapening the brand. No matter what they do, there are going to be those that are upset. They are simply catering to the demand and marketplace. The lotus elise is a great lightweight car stripped down to the basics (like you suggest porsche should move towards again) but they are not exactly flying off the showroom floor and on every street corner are they?

How are the Miata, S2000, Elise/Exige, and aformentioned Toybaru twins 2600 pounds and less? Magic? Come on.

Only the elise is the true bantam weight of the bunch...
 

The miata is steadily increasing in size and weight with each generation just like about every car out there. (a 3rd gen MX-5 is I am guessing about 4-500 lbs more than a first gen). The elise is usually not optioned with much more than a kit car (A/C, radio, sound proofing, carpet, etc.) and the S2000 is according to figures I have seen closer to 2800-2900 lbs. No doubt light but it is a bit unfair to compare any of these two seat only cars to a newer model 911 as the porsche is going to have a lot more standard features (whether you want them or not), larger tires/wheels, a back seat, etc. The toyota and suburu are not in production yet so I am not sure what the final weight might be. I agree with you that I would love to see porsche make the cars smaller (I wish the boxster was the size of an mx-5) and lighter but I just do not see it happening soon with the way people want the combination of a sports car and GT in one. Ferrari can cater to a very narrow clientele that drives their cars primarily on weekends and shorts trips...porsche's cars are much more likely to be driven as a daily driver and as such people demand more content for their money. The original comparison of the suburu and toyota is a bit of a stretch IMO as I do not think these cars are likely to be cross shopped with porsche's present offerings and appeal to completely different types of people.

Try again, on both parts.

The 2012 991 weighs 3,042lbs.
The 2011 997 weighs 3,075lbs.
The 1999 996 weighs 2,901lbs.
The 1998 993 weighs 3,064lbs.

So no, it's not 300lbs. heavier.

And for reference, a 1992 964 weighs 3,031lbs. Wow, so the brand-new 911 weighs in at 11lbs. more than one from 20 years ago, while being larger, more powerful, and more livable, and somehow that's "heavy"? :confused:

I had thought I read in Excellence that the new model was a bit lighter than the outgoing model. The width kind of makes it look heavy, I'm sure the new 911 is plenty fun. What I dislike the most about it is the way the front turn signals and running lights integrate with the front end. I'm no fan of the obtuse angled signals and how they look integrated with the intakes.

Manufacturer
Porsche

Also called

Porsche 911
Porsche Carrera

Production
2011-

Assembly
Stuttgart, Germany

Predecessor
Porsche 997

Body style
2-door coupe
2-door convertible

Layout
Rear engine, rear wheel drive / all wheel drive

Engine
3.4 L H6
3.8 L H6

Transmission
7-speed manual
7-speed PDK

Wheelbase
2,450 millimetres (96.5 in)

Length
4,490 millimetres (176.8 in)

Curb weight
1,470 kilograms (3,250 lb)
-----------------------------------------------

Manufacturer
Porsche

Also called
Porsche 911
Porsche Carrera

Production
1997-2005

Assembly
Stuttgart, Germany

Predecessor
Porsche 993

Successor
Porsche 997

Body style
2-door coupe
2-door convertible

Layout
RR/R4 layout

Engine
3.4 L H6
3.6 L H6

Transmission
5-speed automatic
6-speed manual

Wheelbase
92.6 in (2,352 mm)

Length
174.5 in (4,432 mm)
4S & Turbo: 174.6 in (4,435 mm)

Width
1999-2001: 69.5 in (1,765 mm)
2002-04: 69.7 in (1,770 mm)
4S & Turbo: 72.0 in (1,829 mm)

Height
51.4 in (1,306 mm)
4S & Turbo: 51.0 in (1,295 mm)
40th Anniversary Coupe: 50.2 in (1,275 mm)
GT2: 50.2 in (1,275 mm)

Curb weight
2,920 lb (1,320 kg)

Designer
Harm Lagaay

-------------------------------------------------------

Where is the 991 3000 lbs?

Porsche USA

:cool:

The 1455kg figure is per European guidelines, which includes a 75kg driver. Base weight is 1380kg, 3042lbs.

Reports from end of 2011

Porsche – Down 6.6 Percent

Porsche reported its second straight month in a row with a downturn in year-over-year sales. This month Porsche’s sole gainer was the Cayenne with 1085 sold compared to the 997 sold last November. Only 167 Boxsters and Caymans, and 608 Panameras were sold last month. The 911 is predictably down as well, with only 395 sold last month as many hold out for the 991, scheduled to hit dealerships early next year.

http://www.autoobserver.com/assets/P...ales%20Mix.jpg

While I agree that Porsche as a corporation is doing the right thing to survive, affordable Porsche sports cars have not survived. The company in order to survive has sold its soul. Its not same company it was from 50s to about mid 70's.

Frankly I'm more interested in companies like these that seem to be surviving just fine making innovative affordable sports/racing cars for driving enthusiasts.

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Remember when Porsche made fun affordable sports racing cars? They sold these for $7250 in 1964 - About $50K in 2012 dollars.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...4-terabass.jpg

Porsche has abandonded the people who made the company successful for decades to put SUV's in the hands of wealthy people around the world.

Occupy Zuffenhausen!:D

I have plenty of issues with the 991, but weight isn't one of them. Porsche has done stunning, stunning thing regards keeping the weight under control.

As a reference point, something like an Aston V8 Vantage which is actually shorter in length and height, if a little wider, than the new 991, offers roughly similar power and it all-aluminium is about 300kg heavier than the 991.

It's bonkers to criticise the 991 based on weight. It's one of the new model's great achievements.

2012 Chevrolet Corvette Grand Sport Coupe vs. 2012 Porsche 911 Carrera S Specs - Motor Trend

Maybe the S has 200 pounds on the 3.4? I've yet to see the 3.4 tested.

This also suggests a 300 lb difference between the 996 and 991

Car and Driver Blog » Porsche 911 Generations: The Legend Grows

Fat car.

The new Boxster looks real nice but I am thinking that it will set you back 60-70 K. That's a lot of money, my strategy would be to buy a demo or a car with a few miles let the original owner take the depriciation. The 981 looks totally new and looks like everything has been redone. I own a 2003S and I tell you I just love the car and it is as exciting as it was the first day. Sure I would love to have more horsepower but who doesn't. My car is still plenty quick and since I like spirited driving and not racing I enjoy the performance of the car. As a matter of fact I just updated the interior with new leather. Black with red stitching the car looks positively new. When I retire and move to NC I might consider a 911 so I can take my grand children in the backseat. Otherwise I am still keeping this car.

Ummm, that article was written in November last year and also states the weights for the 991 are estimates...which, I need hardly point out, turned out to be wrong. It puts the bottom estimate at 3250lb or 1,475kg.

In fact, the DIN weight for the new 3.4 is 1,380kg. Figure for the 996 3.4 was 1,320kg,so less than 150lb difference. Given how much bigger and more sophisticated the 991 is, that's very impressive.

Not to say I wouldn't prefer the 991 smaller and lighter. I would. But it's complete nonsense to say the 991 is fat. As I stated above, it's incredibly light for its size and power and makes some of if not most of the competition look a bit ludicrous.

P.S. Can't believe you guys still measure this **************** in lbs and ins. Mental.

...and then the road tests showed they were on with the estimate

http://media.caranddriver.com/files/2012-chevrolet-corvette-z06-vs-2013-nissan-gt-r-vs-2012-porsche-911-carrera-s-comparison-test-car-and-driver2012-chevrolet-corvette-z06-vs-2013-nissan-gt-r-vs-2012-porsche-911-carrera-s-febuary2012.pdf

The nice thing about the history article is that it shows how, just like people, the 911 gets bigger and heavier as it ages. When the Corvette is lighter than your sports car, it should be an indication that there's a problem.

So back to the original point of the post, IMO, Porsche no longer makes special cars, they no longer make unique cars, and they are not any more robust than others. The things that used to make Porsche's different no longer exist. They are now a name on a luxury line up of GTs and Trucks. The relevance to this sports car fan is gone.

The estimated a range of weights starting at 3,250 and the C&D test car with $25k's worth of options including PDK is, I would argue, pretty much as heavy as any 991 Carrera S is going to be.

The 911 has gotten bigger over the years, but I'd say you'd have to characterise the weight as now fluctuating rather than continually rising. The weight fell in the transition from 993 to 996, it went up with the 997 and now it's a bit lower again with the 991. I'd say that, overall, you'd have to characterise is as pretty flat since the 964 came out in 1989, which is very unusual and a real achievement on Porsche's behalf.

I still don't like how big the 991 is, I don't like the electric rack,t he stupid 7-speed manual and the fact that you can't have simple passive sports suspension from the factory. But like I keep saying, the one thing you can't really criticise the 991 for is being too fat.

We can keep going back and forth on the curb weight of the car, I can keep finding more sources that say it's in the 3200 pound range, but what's the point of that? The 911 gets bigger and let's just say somewhat consistantly heavier with every generation and in my opinion, it hasn't been a sports car in a long time. It's too fat in weight and girth and the other "sports car" platform isn't far behind.

It doesn't sound like Porsche is interested in introducing a product in a sub-Boxster size or price point, and for this reason more than any, the company is irrelevant to me.

Sorry, we keep going back and forth because the numbers just don't support your position that the 991 is overweight. Even if it is 3200 pounds minimum, that's less than 10 per cent heavier than the 964 in 1989.

Having read a few of your posts, I know on most matters regards sports cars and Porsche we have very similar opinions. But on this one, you've been smoking something. "Somewhat consistently heavier with every generation"? What does than mean?

Fact: the 996 was lighter than the 993.
Fact: Porsche claims the 991 is lighter than the 997.

The weight of the 991 is something it should be praised for, not criticised. The size and other aspects, are another matter.

And I agree, I'd love to see them making a smaller sports car. Something not too much over 1,000kg with a naturally aspirated flat six would be my preference. Not going to happen, obviously.