FYI, in my Porsche warranty Porsche actually states the warranty does not cover "acts of god", they actually have the brass money balls to use that exact verbiage. When I start my own business I'd like similar wiggle room to thwart any bad press or unhappy customers..Can you imagine, hey Jimmy, when we cracked the crankcase we discovered the engine malfunction was an act of god, sorry but now you owe us 20K...

The 993 and 964 are heavy cars too. Arguing that the 991 is lighter than the 964 doesn't do anything for me. By modern standards, the 996 was a lightweight. Your point, as I understand it, is that for it's size, the 991 is light, I say it's too big and heavy for the car it should be, not the car it is. Fat. It doesn't appeal to me. I will say the same of the 987 and probably 981.

Clearly Porsche is trying to mitigate weight while increasing size and features. My point is, the size and features are objectionable.

Check out the weight of the 4-cylinder Mazda6. It's lighter than the 991. It's a much larger, all steel car. I understand why, save your bandwidth. My point is, if Porsche's priorities lie where they are, the car's don't appeal to me.

That arrogant attitude is another good reason for them to loose once loyal customers.

They better be praying that Korea doesn't aim at a "Substitute". The first car company that puts out something that can run with the new P cars and treats everyone who loves the vehicle as part of a loyal family, might just start said family. I don't know why Ford doesn't make a GT almost 40 instead of that bloated stang. I feel blessed to have the lightest production car the P car boys have made in the past couple years.

I was lucky enough to see a couple of GTs at Griot's Garage at the beginning of the month. What an awesome looking car! Unfortunately, it's no light weight either.

If there was a market for light weight sports cars, Porsche and others would serve it. Given how successful Porsche has been since the introduction of the 996 (at least the car building side of Porsche, if not the speculative, pseudo financial services aspect), you'd have to say in commercial terms they know exactly what they are doing.

It'll be interesting to see what happens with the GT-86/BRZ. Even if it succeeds, I doubt we'll see a wider trend of back to basics, light weight sports cars.

Personally, I think the whole notion of driving on public roads for pleasure is dying going on dead as a remotely mainstream activity.

P.S. @blue2000s my main objection to your posts here was the claim that 911s keep on getting heavier. They really don't.

If what you're saying were true, the Miata wouldn't be the best selling sports car of all time. Porsche may choose to play in a different segment, but it doesn't mean the small sports car segment is dead.

Porsches do keep getting heavier. There was a blip when the 993 went to the 996 because it's lighter to cool an engine with water than with metal fins. otherwise each successive generation has gotten heavier. The 991 may be marginally lighter than the 997, by less than 100 pounds, granted.

Attached are two plots of the curb weight of various 911 models through the years, GTs, Specials, Carreras, Cabrios, ect. Look at the general trend from 1980 on, then look at the water cooled cars, still the same trend, albeit flattened a little.

from here:
Porche Curb Weight

The heaviest, tartiest, nastiest 911s get more kit year after year, and do indeed get ever heavier.

But despite your ever more nuanced efforts, the fact is that the core Carrera 2 model has barely gotten heavier since 1989. Sure, add a glass roof, double-clutch box, blah blah blah, it's going to add up. Honestly, I could care less what the chestwig chariot versions weigh, so long as the core Carreras aren't getting fat. Which they demonstrably are not.

But any remotely sane analysis of the new 991 would conclude two things re the weight:

1. It's not the 991's problem
2. Porsche has done a pretty spectacular job keeping the weight down

Try comparing the weight of a basic E30 3 Series to the latest F30. The latter is over 500lb heavier. Now that is weight gain.

Oh and re the Miata, I'd say it wasn't popular because it was light. It was popular because it was affordable.

Anyway, as I said above, I see driving for pleasure as dying as a mainstream hobby.

I think what we're down to now is a matter of perspective. I'm going to end by respectfully disagreeing.

I'll end by saying there is a market for light sports cars Pothole, Spyders are selling so fast I missed three! Lotus has built a entire following on this principle, although it should be noted the Cayman R still handed the Evora a plate of it's own ass and costs much less.

Lotus has basically never been profitable selling Elise based cars. Kind of amazing, but apparently true. It's now in the process of dumping its light weight strategy in favour of a range of significantly heavier, higher specced cars. A total travesty if you ask me, but perhaps commercially necessary?

Spyder hasn't been that huge a commercial success this side of the pond. For a long while after production ended, there were a bunch of them knocking around UK dealers being offered below list.

How good the Cayman R is, is irrelevant to what the market demands. I don't think the Cayman R was a huge success, either. Brilliant car, but most people with the necessary funds aren't full-on enthusiasts.

As I keep saying, my preference is for light weight, simple sports cars with manual boxes, minimal driver aids, natural aspiration etc. But I'm not remotely convinced there's a large consumer demand for light weight sports cars and that's why so few are made.

I know very clearly what I like, but I'll give Porsche credit for knowing better what the market wants.

it comes down to modern demographics, the current driving generation is more impressed by the latest Iphone than a nice car. They could care less about going for a nice Sunday afternoon drive down a windy road in the mountains, they would rather be playing video games.

the new Toyota/Subraru is a step in the right direction, but it has glaring problems I cannot overlook.
1-not near enough power compared to most cars on the road today
2-not enough rubber on the road.....215 width tires? really?
3-price-approching the price of a base WRX, which is a MUCH faster, equally as well handling car

If you desire a naturally aspirated anything it's going to have to be retro, everything seems to be going the other way to meet cafe standards. Hey my dad's surgeon is trying to sell a 12 cyl Jag....

It's certainly true that proportionally fewer young people today have driver's licences (in Europe and the US) than they did 20 or even 10 years. And indeed, many of them are more interested in the latest smartphone launch / review than reading about new sports cars.

All that is indeed part of the overall picture, that also includes environmental and economic pressures, that has me doubting the overall commercial viability of sports cars these days. Especially, small, affordable, lightweight sports cars that serious driving enthusiasts would enjoy.

Instead (in Europe, anyway), sports cars will be ****************heaps like DS3 Racings or MINI Coopers. Not sports cars at all, in other words, but that's the sort of car people sill queue up to buy. So it goes.

These may be problems in terms of if being a commercial success.

But for me the numbers look great apart from the price. I am so tired of cars with massive tyres and huge grip. Much more fun to have thinner tyres and a chassis that you can really play with. More grip isn't automatically better for driving enjoyment.

In fact, too much grip is probably my only real complaint about Boxsters and Caymans (well, apart from the grenading engines).

I'll take the grip, it's the "like it's on rails in a corner" feeling about driving Porsche cars that I find addictive. Don't forget modern cars all have grip and capability compared to the type of cars you are talking about and they cut you zero slack on the roads. When I was driving the Fiat I had to push it pretty hard to keep people in traffic happy, off ramps people would be right on you like you were not driving a forty year old machine with skinny tires and less grip.

You can have that on-rails feeling with lower outright grip levels. If you put 225 tyres on a Boxster, you've still have the on-rails feeling, but you'd be able to play with the rear end more readily.

Regards keeping up with traffic in the US, gimme a break. The traffic crawls. You could still annihilate 99% of other cars and get arrested for driving massively over the speed limits if you stuck 155-section boots on a Boxster.

[QUOTE=pothole;280537]You can have that on-rails feeling with lower outright grip levels. If you put 225 tyres on a Boxster, you've still have the on-rails feeling, but you'd be able to play with the rear end more readily.

Regards keeping up with traffic in the US, gimme a break. The traffic crawls. You could still annihilate 99% of other cars and get arrested for driving massively over the speed limits if you stuck 155-section boots on a Boxster.[/QUOTE]

Yeah well in a 1971 Fiat spyder you have to push it pretty hard, as for traffic I don't live near the big city, in good weather people fly around here. I don't have the desire to do the Tokyo drift, I'll keep the grip and you can have the loose rear.

Wow, that's the oddest thing I've ever heard. You want a sportscar without grip???? It does sound like you want a vintage car. You could just put the cheapest narrow tires you can find on it, that should kill your grip.

Yup, a tossible car usually has lower grip and narrower tires. It lends to a more direct steering system, better road feel and more attainable limits. It's part of the reason that stock miatas and mr2s are so much fun.

I didn't say I wanted no grip. I said I wanted lower grip than is typical with, say, a Boxster, which has too much grip, especially on the rear axle. A little less grip would allow you to get the rear of the car moving around more easily and, as blue200s says, improves the steering, gives you better road feel. Narrower tyres can actually make a car feel more positive on turn in too. Fat tyres give you more grip, but they can make a car feel dull witted, too.

The problem with, say, throwing really ****************ty tyres on the rear axle is that you don't just loose grip. There's the structure of the tyre too - if the sidewall is very weak, for instance, that's not going to be nice for handling.

The GT-86 / BRZ has thin tyres specifically so that you can slide the thing at sane speeds and sane lateral loads. I doubt many people care. Only people who love proper driver's cars will think that's a good idea, and there are hardly any of those.

I love a good drivers car, but I would much rather grip than drift! I love taking on ramps at stupid speeds and feeling the lateral G-loads....it would just be unsafe to be drifting around said on-ramp!

Now imagine getting that same feeling going 30 or 40 mph. Where you aren't at risk of killing yourself or someone else. That's the difference.

Toyota says they are Prius tires. Which is awesome, someone knows what they're doing over there.

To be honest, good driver's cars aren't about taking ramps at high speeds. There are plenty of **************** modern cars with very high grip levels that can do it.

But even with much more narrow tyres, you could still very probably take the ramps at the speeds you are now. You're probably nowhere near the limit with your massive boots.

The narrow 225s the 16-inch 986 wheels have would be good, it's just a shame the 16s look so crap...

Well, the Boxster is pretty much the benchmark for steering feel, so I'm not sure what your trying to improve on. You guys really sound like you should be Elise owners.

Boxster's steering feel is over rated. It's good, but it's not that good. And it's over assisted. My old E36 (admittedly tweaked with a Z3 rack and nice geo) had as good if not marginally nicer steering than a 986.

Something like a 968 has much nicer steering than a Boxster, too. I haven't driven a 964, but I bet it kills the Box for steering loveliness.

best steering feel of any car I have ever drove was my 1983 944 with non-power steering, it felt amazing!

Agreed, 944s have fantastic manual racks. Much better than the Boxster.

Yeah, I assume 944s are similar to 968s. 968s have gorgeous steering. Assisted, admittedly, but still nice and weighty.

ban chandarpool he's just thread spamming and advertising

I guess I can see your point, I had a '94 Integra that was actually very fun. Good suspension, but small tires and soft springs, so you really felt the car respond to your inputs. I just don't see why Porsche would ever build their version of this, or a Miata. The want to be the pinnacle of performance, not mediocre and affordable. The Elise wouldn't even fit your needs, it may be light, with smaller tires, but it still has 1G cornering capability. You just can't turn back time and produce a "new" vintage car. can you even buy a car now with wind-up windows?

Yes, the Elise can be ordered with wind-up windows, still sold in Europe. They're beautiful little aluminum pieces.

http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-jkl/Lotus-Elise-72-Interior.jpg

Like was mentioned above, the BRZ/FR-S come with lower adhesion tires.

The miata has a more sophisticated suspension system than the 911 and Boxster. There's nothing mediocre about the Miata besides it's storage space.

As an 11-year owner of Miatas (94-'04)and lover of same, I have to disagree. While the Miata can be great fun and was a pretty good handler when it came out in '89, the world moved forward and Mazda stayed still in both power and handling for 15 years, then made a small jump forward in each 7 years ago. As a result, recent comparos like the annual C&D Lightning Lap reveal the Miata's lap times to be slower than many of the front-drive economy sedans that have been tested. Yes, the car is still fun, like an MG-TD can be fun, but in any objective sense it has slipped to merely mediocre.

EDIT: I just saw your edited statement about suspension sophistication. Yes, theoretically the double-wishbone design of all generations of Miata has characteristics that make it better than strut-type suspensions. But execution is even more important than theory, and in this regard, at least U.S.-spec Miatas have too many compromised features to qualify as well-executed. (Of course, modified suspensions serve to reveal what a good platform the Miata offers, but any car can be modified, including Porsches. I'm talking what you get at the dealer.)

This may sound like sacrilage but the Boxster and even Carrera are almost irrelvant for Porsche going forward. Put it this way if Porsche decided to drop the Carrera and Boxster they are still a perfectly viable and profitable company with the Panamera, Cayenne and whatever new mini-Cayenne or coupe Panamera models they were to come out with. Not a single rear or mid-engined offering on offer and they'd sell the brand to emerging market and U.S. buyers at higher numbers than at any point in their history.

At this point selling Boxsters is more like a favor. And selling a minimalist sports coupe (not into exotic money territory) is not even in the plan anymore. A 991S with a sticker well into the six figures is not in the budget for many traditional Porsche buyers. THey are going after the deep deep pocket luxury crowd as the backbone of their sales.

OK, the Miata's power is mediocre if you think you need to be down the 1/4 mile in less than 14 seconds for a car to be fun. The whole point is that lap times don't matter in the real world.

As far as suspension execution, the Miata may be a little soft stock, but a car that's got some very elemental suspension modifications can be hard to beat for fun to drive.

Wow, is that REALLY what you got out of my comments? :confused:

But since you bring it up, 1/4 mile times are yet another proof of the Miata's mediocrity. It has mediocre lap times on any track, mediocre acceleration times over any distance, and mediocre fuel mileage given its tiny size, weight, and performance. On the other hand, it can be enormously fun, especially with suspension upgrades (and even more so with a solid turbo setup, but I digress.) Any way you slice it, that fun is being had in a mediocre vehicle.

I primarily meant mediocre in the sense of ultimate cornering grip, which I believe is accurate, and what you are looking for.