another dead boxster @#$%!

[Banana S]

Just wanted to chime in here and point out, for anybody that might have missed it, just how easy it would have been for Jake to come back this afternoon and post, "Yep, just as I expected, the IMS blew, Pat needs a new engine altogether, might as well let me do it while it's in my shop already." No pictures, no step-by-step analysis, and we'd all have simply nodded and said yep, that's the way it goes.

You're a class act, Jake. When I start getting hungry for a little more power than my 3.2L can churn out, I'll be taking another trip to Georgia.

[Dragonwind]

This thread has to be one of the best ones I have ever read here. Thank you Jake for providing such a play by play analysis of the diagnosis and repair.

Chris

[stab1991]

I dont understand the whole IMS function and how they got away with it in the 09 MY cars. Does anyone have a website they can forward explaining this. Thanks. Curious minds want to know.

[JFP in PA]

Actually, it is pretty simple; a short chain on the front of the engine drives the intermediate shaft. At the rear of the engine, the intermediate shaft turns long chains that drive the cams. The rear of the IMS is supported by a sealed bearing that is bolted to a flange behind the flywheel; this is the “problem child” as the seals prevent lubrication by the engine oil, but when the seals begin to fail, allow the ultra thin 0-40W engine oil to wash the grease out of the bearing, but not let enough in to cool and properly lubricate the bearing. Over time, the bearing balls start to gall and eventually the assembly fails, allowing the long rear cam chains to go slack while the engine is turning and jump time. As the M96 is and “interference” engine, pistons start hitting valves, and total mayhem takes over………

[litteng]

the following thread at pelican parts layouts the new 9a1 engine, the camshafts are now driven of the crankshaft without the intermediate shaft,

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/399701-dfi-engine-block-info-rumors-2.html

[stab1991]

Thanks guys. Much better understanding now.

[Gilles]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

We'll re-test for compression and leak down tomorrow to see if the numbers are more consistent after run time to burn all the oil out of the intake/cylinders and etc.

Jake, any news regarding the compression and leak down test.?
BTW, thanks for a great thread..!

[02box]

Hello all, I just chatted with Jake and the car is running well with the new AOS. I think he's put 80 miles on it since the fix. I'm thankful that it wasn't the catostrphic failure I thought it was. I have opted to go ahead with the retro fitted IMS bearing which he will do next week. he said everything looks good and even at 86,000 mi. the engine seems strong. I could just drive it this way but I'll feel better having the new bearing. I put 35,000 mi. on a car every year so I'm not sure I want to put that many miles the boxster so I may put up for sale when I get it back. I'll feel better selling it with the now AOS and retrofitted bearing. I wish I would have found a car for sale that already had it done.
Jake is a pro and the most helpful and communicative person I have ever dealt with. constant updates. we are all lucky to have such a guy involved with these cars. I feel the the cost of all this has also been more than fair.
I'm sure he will keep the thread running thru the IMS bearing update. I too am looking forward to that. this has been a very positive experience in light of the deressing nature of the breakdown. I'm gone for the weekend but will pick the thread up monday when I get back. motor on dudes and dudettes

Pat (O2BOX)

[mikefocke]

just how much preventative maintenance to do.

The AOS is a no-brainer.

But do you stop at the IMS or go on and RMS and/or clutch? Turn it into a cpo or go on for a full rebuild or even a bigger engine?

The costs are so different and is there a right answer?

I don't think so, only the answer you come up with understanding your risk tolerance, budget, other priorities, etc.

Tough to sell this season...over 1000 used Boxsters for sale nationally (cars.com count).

[JTP]

What AOS is recommended gor the 986? Is there an updated version or is the motorsport version better?

[seningen]

Originally Posted by mikefocke

just how much preventative maintenance to do.

The AOS is a no-brainer.

But do you stop at the IMS or go on and RMS and/or clutch? Turn it into a cpo or go on for a full rebuild or even a bigger engine?

The costs are so different and is there a right answer?

I don't think so, only the answer you come up with understanding your risk tolerance, budget, other priorities, etc.

Tough to sell this season...over 1000 used Boxsters for sale nationally (cars.com count).

RMS is about a $30 part -- no significant extra labor since
it sits about 5" above IMS.
Clutch will probably run about $500 -- a little more labor
but not much. The majority of the labor is same as getting to the IMS.

The RMS is a no brainer, and the clutch is pretty close to that.

Water Pumps are another weak spot IMHO. Part runs $225 plus gasket,
probably 1 hr of labor tops.

Mike

[Jake Raby]

I won't complete an IMSR without doing the RMS and clutch, all the way or not at all is my motto..

These things will be done on Pat's Boxster, but it is a tiptronic, so the course of action is different.

I told Pat that I'd stop at the IMSR procedure on his engine and not go further, because it is a 2002, a tip and had great leakdown and compression numbers, indicating good chamber filling/ good lifters..

Pat is going to do whats most important and thats wise, he has a budget and at the same time doesn't want to be driving a mobile grenade that he KNOWS has the pin pulled due to the rubber that we found in the sump plate.

Pat is going just far enough, his engine's biggest weak point is the IMS bearing, not all model years and engine sizes have the same compromises as others..

I'll post the whole process next week..

[coreseller]

Great thread and even greater explanations of potential IMS issues and how it is addressed by Jake. Given the amount of IMS related inquiries by new / concerned forum members maybe this ought to be stickied along with links to Charles Navarro's Youtube explanation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvLRMGs-Ti8

Great job Jake.....

[MikenOH]

Jake:
Unless I missed it, could you post a picture of his failing IMS bearing?

[JTP]

Originally Posted by MikenOH

Jake:
Unless I missed it, could you post a picture of his failing IMS bearing?

He hasn't gotten to that point yet. There was bearing seal materal in the oil pan but big problem was a failed AOS.

[Jake Raby]

We'll extract the bearing in the coming week now that Pat has agreed to march forward with that process.

You guys will be disappointed with the lack of bearing damage thats visual, more than likely when the bearing is extracted. This is because the tiny bits of seal that we caught in the oil sump are the very earliest stages of seal failure, which is best case scenario for catching an IMS when going south. The damage to the bearing is nil at the present time, BUT the damage will progress fairly quickly once the seal is fully compromised and the permanant lubrication is washed away by the engine oil.

This is best case scenario for Pat, because if the bearing goes further and starts to fail it is more difficult to extract and damage to the IMS tube is possible. This is why being proactive is REQUIRED.

Pat is at great risk for an IMS issue because:
1- The car is an 02 model with a 2.7 and a single row bearing
2- Its a tip
3- Because its a tip coupled to the fact that the car has been driven very easy by Pat because he didn't want to experience an issue..

When driving this car it shifts into 5th gear when in "drive" mode at less than 45 MPH at an RPM of less than 1800.. That spells disaster for the IMS bearing which sees MORE load at the bearing than at higher RPM.

Its a good thing that Pat had the AOS failure and thought the engine was scattered, else it would not have had the sump plate pulled and the seal material would not have been noted. This would have led to bearing failure out of the blue.

This is the procedure that we'll be carrying out for Pat on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday of the coming week in detail. I still have to add pics of the process to the site, but I am so busy helping guys like Pat that I just can't get that done!
http://www.flat6innovations.com/services/intermediate-shaft-retrofit

[Jake Raby]

We are in work this morning doing the final compression and leak down tests to ensure that the issues with Pat's Boxster have worked themselves out. I'll post results in a few minutes as soon as we complete the evaluations.

I have the IMSR procedure scheduled on my schedule for tomorrow and Wednesday, we'll be posting the entire procedure here from start to finish.

[Jake Raby]

Here are the compression numbers from this morning's tests..

The numbers are good, we did the test warm since I drove the car in this morning. The good news is that #1 has dropped back to the normal numbers.

Here they are-
1-195 PSI/ 4% leak
2-190 PSI/ 4% leak
3-190 PSI/ 5% leak
4-190 PSI/ 6% leak
5-195 PSI/ 6% leak
6-190 PSI/ 6% leak

These are good numbers from a warm engine with 86K miles. We are marching on with the IMSR procedure now.

[Jake Raby]

Pat's IMS has been retrofitted and the seal was definitely compromised!! I'll show you guys how we knew this tomorrow when I post pics.

We'll have the car back together and on the dyno tomorrow!

[Jake Raby]

Forgive my delay in posting some pics..

Here is Pat's IMSR procedure in pictorial form..

In this series of pics the transaxle is removed, then the flex plate is removed to gain access to the IMS bearing flange.