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Old 03-03-2010, 09:41 AM   #1
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Older Box? Considering headers?

I know this is going to sound bad but I can't remember being more pissed in 51 years. I now have a helio coil in my exhaust manifold I'm praying will sock up and one more to repair I'm praying won't end up a second helio coil. Besides that, the uber strong, splined threaded bolts in the cat converter? Three came out like butter, the other three I beat the **************** out of no no avail. I have no idea how to get those lower splines out except to rent a torch.

I'm serious when I say I very well may have wrecked my car and I'm so defeated I may just sell it for a huge loss if I can't remedy the rest of the repair, all in pursuit of sound and maybe 10 hp...

Any suggestions on the splined broken bolts other than the torch I don't have would be appreciated.

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Old 03-03-2010, 10:53 AM   #2
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About 4-6 weeks ago Maurice

posted of the same issue over on PPBB complete with a running commentary and pictures of what he was trying.

It starts here http://www.ppbb.com/phorum/read.php?19,1551648,1551648#msg-1551648 but there may be a few more separate threads as the saga streatched over about 10 days IIRC.

Do not despair, read first and then consider the things he tried. It wasn't easy but your engine isn't wrecked.
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Old 03-03-2010, 11:09 AM   #3
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I agree, you haven't hit any point of destruction yet. Take a step back, let it sit for a day or even two. I've done that before, just let the project sit and come back to it refreshed.

Keep us posted.
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Old 03-03-2010, 11:15 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eightsandaces
I know this is going to sound bad but I can't remember being more pissed in 51 years. I now have a helio coil in my exhaust manifold I'm praying will sock up and one more to repair I'm praying won't end up a second helio coil. Besides that, the uber strong, splined threaded bolts in the cat converter? Three came out like butter, the other three I beat the **************** out of no no avail. I have no idea how to get those lower splines out except to rent a torch.

I'm serious when I say I very well may have wrecked my car and I'm so defeated I may just sell it for a huge loss if I can't remedy the rest of the repair, all in pursuit of sound and maybe 10 hp...

Any suggestions on the splined broken bolts other than the torch I don't have would be appreciated.
Eights:

Don't despair, it can be done. Those splined bolts can be drilled out if you are patient and use the right tools. I recently went through the exact set of difficulties and was able to successfully drill out all of the broken studs and later drill out the splined bolts on the catalytic converters. I replaced them all with stainless steel fasteners.

Here is a photo of the remnants of the splined bolts on the cats:



Note that it is not a good idea to bang them out with a sledge hammer as you may damage the cats.

Take a look at this thread, it may give you some useful tips and some inspiration:
http://www.ppbb.com/phorum/read.php?19,1552044,1552044#msg-1552044

Also take a look at this thread for some more text and photos:
http://www.ppbb.com/phorum/read.php?19,1551648,1551736#msg-1551736

The key in drilling out the bolts is using that little dremel carbide bit if you don't get your initial mark dead center.

Hang in there!

Regards, Maurice.

Last edited by schoir; 03-03-2010 at 11:18 AM.
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Old 03-03-2010, 11:18 AM   #5
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X2 step away from the car when frustrated, tired or hungry.

I had a head bolt round off on a V8 and after a few days of cogitating on it I was able to come up with four methods of getting it out. Number one actually worked without having to resort to welding a bolt on, drilling and tapping and other more extreme measures.

Heat is not even on the extreme list if it makes you feel any better.
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Old 03-03-2010, 12:22 PM   #6
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Wow, I never felt so much empathy from people I only know in type, thanks, it means a lot today. I just returned from renting a very good acetylene torch. I'm a bit reticent about using it, but I think it's necessary. I guess the only laugh today was the RR side came apart like butter... What concerns me the most is the helio coil, it's in there well, (I converted that hole to a stud) maybe it will suprise me and work right.

PS When I was doing my serpentine belt, I found the insulation above the area to almost be hanging into the belt path, I wanted to let EVERYONE know that. Also, if you are ever removing the tensioner, take the pulley of the PS pump, three bolts makes the job easier..
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Old 03-04-2010, 09:00 AM   #7
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Take that Helio coil out (looks like a spring correct?) and use a timesert:

http://www.timesert.com/html/mtrcsert.html

Done a thousand air-cooled Porsche-VW broken studs in my life. Coils are junk, don't hold up at all. Timeserts are the solution.

Keep the updates coming!
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Old 03-04-2010, 09:42 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by root_werks
Take that Helio coil out (looks like a spring correct?) and use a timesert:

http://www.timesert.com/html/mtrcsert.html

Done a thousand air-cooled Porsche-VW broken studs in my life. Coils are junk, don't hold up at all. Timeserts are the solution.

Keep the updates coming!

Wow, that looks good are they available in any retail stores? I really worked hard to get the coils well seated. I looked all over for a converter for the taps to connect to a ratchet but no luck. You cant cut thread as well as I'd like to do to this restriction. I think I'll try them and if there is an exhaust leak, I'll just pull it back apart and start from zero, that is unless I can buy these today and the extension.

Thanks, oh and I never needed the torch, Sears Cobalt bits, worked like a charm. It's ready for a test install.

Last edited by eightsandaces; 03-04-2010 at 09:45 AM.
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Old 03-04-2010, 09:45 AM   #9
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Outstanding, good to hear!
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Old 03-04-2010, 09:51 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by landrovered
Outstanding, good to hear!

The parts just arrived, I'm going to try to find those other inserts, otherwise tomorrow morning I'll do the test hook up.

Thanks to everyone for the mental, moral support, I never imagined fasteners would be as crazy as they were.
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Old 03-04-2010, 10:18 AM   #11
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Excellent work!

Once you get everything installed, because you were able to prevail, the headers will feel that much sweeter!

Regards, Maurice.
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Old 03-04-2010, 10:37 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by schoir
Excellent work!

Once you get everything installed, because you were able to prevail, the headers will feel that much sweeter!

Regards, Maurice.

I owe you the most thanks, our phone conversation completely rejuvenated my desire to prevail. I just hope the one helio doesn't leak, if it does, I'll have to look into those timesets.
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Old 03-04-2010, 10:58 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by eightsandaces
I owe you the most thanks, our phone conversation completely rejuvenated my desire to prevail. I just hope the one helio doesn't leak, if it does, I'll have to look into those timesets.
It's your perseverance that got it done!

When I was having my "little adventure" with the four broken exhaust manifold studs, I researched the possibility of an insert. Two articles that I read were very emphatic in their praise of TimeSerts over the "old heli-coil" inserts. Fortunately, I ended up not having to use any inserts.

There is a company that sells the TimeSerts, along with the special tool needed for a perfect job. Not expensive, either. One of the aspects that impressed me was that the TimeSert will sit flush with the surface of the cylinder head and the special tool goes inside the insert to expand the innermost part of the insert against the base of the hole.

I'll look through my notes to see if I can find that reference and post it.

Regards, Maurice.
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Old 03-04-2010, 11:09 AM   #14
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Time-Certs are indeed the way to go.

Porsche even uses them for broken head bolts. I had 2 broken bolts on the bracket which holds the front sway bar and discovered this when I installed my M030 Front Sway bar.

I had a discount service coupon for the dealership, 1 Hr. Labor for $45, and so was able to have them drill it out and insert the time certs for less $$ than I would have spent on the tool and certs alone - the only time another mechanic has ever touched my car - nerve wracking to say the least.

They did the work in an hour and the lead tech who did the work said that it was just as strong if not stronger with the time cert than originally.

Cheers!
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Old 03-04-2010, 11:11 AM   #15
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Good job! Glad to hear everything finally came appart. This is a project I wager I'll be doing myself someday.

Pelican Parts or GRP parts should have the TimeSert kits. Locally, I'm not sure would would carry them other than a good auto parts store?

As said, the kit include the counter sinking bit and installing tools. If done properly, the finished product looks like something the factory would do. My kit is almost 20 years old now. I have 2-3 little bags of that 8x1.25 Porsche exhaust stud inserts.
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Old 03-04-2010, 11:44 AM   #16
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Eights:

Found the link. It's the link to the company's website and it has all of the metric sizes available, as well as an excellent video that shows you the foolproof procedure: http://www.timesert.com/html/mtrcsert.html

Once you are on that page, also click on the link that says "Click Here for Video Installation" and then select the two videos that are entitled "STANDARD BOLT REPAIR DEMONSTRATION" and “STANDARD BOLT REPAIR CLOSE-UP”.

The key advantage over the heli-coil is that the insert will not back out and they claim it is stronger than the original threads. The bottom three threads are apparently the ones that get "expanded" to lock the insert in place.

Regards, Maurice.
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Old 03-04-2010, 12:49 PM   #17
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Repair now delayed, timesert repair kit ordered, I'll get back to you all next week..


edit* I was searching the net and read going with the helio first is a good idea as if it fails it can be upgraded to the timesert, whereas a failed timesert makes a harder repair, so tomorrow we dance.

Last edited by eightsandaces; 03-04-2010 at 01:46 PM.
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Old 03-04-2010, 02:31 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eightsandaces
Repair now delayed, timesert repair kit ordered, I'll get back to you all next week..


edit* I was searching the net and read going with the helio first is a good idea as if it fails it can be upgraded to the timesert, whereas a failed timesert makes a harder repair, so tomorrow we dance.
Sorry, eights, but that is a bogus claim. ANY failed repair makes further repair more difficult and less likely to be successful. Waiting for the proper insert is the ONLY way to go.
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Old 03-05-2010, 02:15 AM   #19
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Sorry, eights, but that is a bogus claim. ANY failed repair makes further repair more difficult and less likely to be successful. Waiting for the proper insert is the ONLY way to go.

Since they are on order I'm going to wait, I have two helios, one per side in the same spot one is suspect the other is very tight, seems like a waste to destroy the one that is likely to hold but I might as well do while it's apart.
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Old 03-08-2010, 12:18 PM   #20
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Just wanted all to know the headers are in, I used one timesert per side and both snugged up tight. Unless there is more exhaust pressure in gear I'm confident they are leak free. I crawled under to check and blipped the throttle a couple times. Everything seems tight and beautiful sounding, actually far mellower than I expected which I'm glad about.



The plastic shroud is close to the headers, I'm tempted to leave it off but I'm thinking about buying more heat shield, which I used on the PS line and coolant lines on the other side. I thought I'd make a barrier between the headers and cover, any thoughts?

Thanks to all, BTW timeserts appear easy in the video because the dude is on a bench, when you're on your back and deploying speedbor extensions, not so much. The happiest grin of two weeks was when the second of the two socked in tight.

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