Dispeling M96 engine rumors

[Dragonwind]

I think the biggest one for me, and despite the respect I have for Jake, is the lifters issue. At first he claimed it was robbing power, now in another post he mentions it is fuel economy and no car dyno'ed gave more than 1hp gain. My mechanic who has rebuilt many a M96 motor hasn't seen these problems. And if it were MPG then why does my 99 still get the same MPG that it was rated for 10 years ago with 89k on the OD (and I keep her in the high revs)?

Chris

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by Dragonwind

I think the biggest one for me, and despite the respect I have for Jake, is the lifters issue. At first he claimed it was robbing power, now in another post he mentions it is fuel economy and no car dyno'ed gave more than 1hp gain. My mechanic who has rebuilt many a M96 motor hasn't seen these problems. And if it were MPG then why does my 99 still get the same MPG that it was rated for 10 years ago with 89k on the OD (and I keep her in the high revs)?

Chris

Like I said, there are no blanket statements that can be made with these engines and their issues. Some cars that have lifter issues make much more power after they are remedied.. Others lose MPG but never really lose power, and some engines make more power from the factory than others.

It has a lot to do with how many lifters are bad and if they are on the intake or exhaust valves.

What I said was:

I recently had a car show up here with 22 of 24 lifters bad, after our work the MPG jumped up 5 MPG, but the power didn't change more than 1HP and 1.5% average torque.

Note that is ONE instance with one car. Some engines that we do this work to do pick up power, I have seen as much as 6HP and 11 lb/ft of torque but the biggest difference is the torque and HP plots and their smoothness. In a lot of instances the average power output is increased across the board, not just at peak output and the dip at the variocam changeover point is greatly reduced with the lifter upgrade.

If you have decent gas mileage and decent power don't worry about the lifters... They'll never fail and leave you on the side of the road.

[cnavarro]

Ok, the lifters might be one of those "while you are in there job," but again, sometimes it's needed. It's a known fact that the wear pads for the variocam on the pre-vane cell adjuster engines are typically worn out by 60-80k miles. So, while you are in there, it's easy enough to pull the lifters and check them while replacing the wear pads and chains. If you end up needing some new lifters, why not replace them all? Or third option, rebuild the set of lifters rather than replacing them- a cheaper third option.

I'll continue to add to the list - chain tensioners. They have been revised and updated, and again, some at even low mileage have excess clatter at startup that may be a lifter or lifters or the chain tensioners. Retail, they are not even that expensive. We reused a set of low mileage tensioners on my 2.9 and even with an accusump pre-oiling the engine, I can hear them. So this winter, they are getting swapped out for new ones. Lifters were new since all of them were bad on the low mileage donor.

This isn't a problem isolated to the M96. Our W8 Passat with 55,000 miles has it's engine out for failed chain tensioners, thankfully under powertrain warranty since it's an 8-10k repair!. Makes the M96 look downright inexpensive to repair!

Unfortunately, frequent oil changes alone aren't a cure for lifters and tensioners. Hell, my W8 had it's oil changes every 5,000 miles (10L fill, half the factory drain interval) with Motul every fill and the tensioners still failed.

We just have to learn to deal with what we are given and work within those constraints.

[Brucelee]

Originally Posted by Fred Demara

I've owned over a dozen cars in my 25 years of driving (some really nice, some junkers) - my 02 boxster s is the only one that has had 3 engines in under 80,000 miles.

The M96 is a shamefully poor design in terms of reliability - Porsche should have let Subaru build these engines for them.

I think Fred is right on here. I love the Box but this engine and RMS issue has persisted for many years. Ditto, I have never had an engine go bad on me in my 40+ years of driving.

I had a 327 Corvette that I beat as hard as I could, all the time, everytime.

Hey, I was 17. The car had cheap oil in it and perhaps, didn't have enough at times.

Never missed a beat.

I think they call it robust?

My current Lexus is coming up on 140K miles. Just drove it 2000 miles from SD to Des Moines IA. Never missed a beat, didn't burn a drop of oil. The car is 13 yrs old.

Porsche can do better on the engine, no doubt in my mind.

[Cloudsurfer]

I think most of us can agree, that if you want long term reliability in a car, go Japanese, specifically, Honda or Toyota. Unfortunately, as reliable as those cars are, they're just not that exciting to me.

[Dragonwind]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

If you have decent gas mileage and decent power don't worry about the lifters... They'll never fail and leave you on the side of the road.

Thanks Jake and fair enough. I'll deal with them in a few years when it is valve job time. Maybe by then I'll drop in one of yours.
Chris

[JTP]

Just like Jake said, you can't make a blanket statement about everything. Honda and Toyota is known for reliability and so is VW to a lesser degree.

Long ago I had a Toyota Supra that gave me a lot of headaches requiring many long nights repairing. During the same time period I drove my boss's Toyota pickup truck that I drove hard and actually tried to destroy but it proved to be stronger than my attempts to kill it. I also own two Mk4 VWs, a 2000 Jetta and a 2004 GTI, both of which I bought new. Similar cars based on the same platform. I've had nothing but problems with the Jetta (powertrain, electrical, brakes, everything had issues) and the rod just went at 140k blowing the engine. My GTI has been trouble free (knock on wood) requiring only routine maintenance. I've also had a 928S and three 914s that were relatively trouble free and a pleasure to own. I haven't had the Box long enough to make any statement about reliability.

VW has a decent reliability rating but if I only owned the Jetta I'd curse VW for building a lemon like the Jetta but the GTI has given me a great ownership experience. Similarly, some Boxster owners have a relatively trouble free ownership experience while some unfortunate few have multiple engine failures and gremlin possessed cars. In general Porsche has a good reliability reputation (consumer repoerts gives the Boxster a much better than average rating) despite some design flaws. The same can be said for Honda, Toyota and VW.

[RGH]

I can't take it anymore, I'm losing sleep worrying about this and I just bought the car. anybody want to buy an '04 base w/ 14k miles on it?

[tonycarreon]

Originally Posted by RGH

I can't take it anymore, I'm losing sleep worrying about this and I just bought the car. anybody want to buy an '04 base w/ 14k miles on it?

it's probably on it's last legs... i'll give you $500 for it.

[mikefocke]

"Then why do so few M96s make it to that point?? I agree that there are exceptions, but I rarely get calls from anyone with more than 85K"

Maybe the reason you don't hear from high mileage owners with problems is because your prices are so high that they are just swapping in engines from wrecks as the only economically reasonable alternative to junking the car without investigating you beyond a quick internet price search. When the car is worth $10k running perfectly as many 986s are, it is hard to pay up to double that for an engine. It isn't like these will be collectibles and the emotional attachment of the owner may not be as high as we saw with 914s and 911s. Plus lots of 986 owners have a very different economic profile from the 914/911 owners. (Not disputing the worth of your work or the value received for the money you charge...just that it is high relative to the value of the car's value and so the sample you get is very selective. If my engine blows, I'll ship you my car but it wouldn't make economic sense as I could replace the car for 50-75% of the replacement engine cost. I'll do it for emotional reasons and because I can and not everyone is in that position.)

And I don't understand your wording that "so few M96s make it to that point". You don't hear from 85k+ Boxster owners who aren't having trouble so how can you compare failures to success numbers and say "so few"?

[Samson]

Originally Posted by Brucelee

My current Lexus is coming up on 140K miles. Just drove it 2000 miles from SD to Des Moines IA. Never missed a beat, didn't burn a drop of oil. The car is 13 yrs old.

Porsche can do better on the engine, no doubt in my mind.

Heh, don't even get me started on Japanese (Lexus, specifically) vs. German consumer-level product engineering and quality. I love my Boxster, but let's get real - German cars are known for doing a lot of things very well, but these days, quality is not one of their strong points. Lexus wins that race by a country mile. (I type this as I'm looking for another IS300... best car I've ever owned.)


Anywho, this is an interesting discussion. I'm looking forward to reading more.

[Cloudsurfer]

Keep in mind, that with anything of this nature, the people who don't have problems with their cars don't come on these forums to ******************** about it. Therefore, the many Boxster and 996 owners that have actually accumulated significant miles on their cars are out driving them and not commiserating with other owners who have had problems. I would actually say that my Boxster has been one of the most reliable cars I've owned to date. I do realize, however, that many other owners have not had the experience I have, and if I were in that other camp, I'd be just as upset as the others who are.

Personally, while I think Porsche could have done some things different with respect to these engines, issues with plastic rear windows, window regulators, convertible mechanisms, etc are just part of the game with owning a car like this, and not related to engine problems.

[Daniel R]

Originally Posted by mikefocke

"Then why do so few M96s make it to that point?? I agree that there are exceptions, but I rarely get calls from anyone with more than 85K"

Maybe the reason you don't hear from high mileage owners with problems is because your prices are so high that they are just swapping in engines from wrecks as the only economically reasonable alternative to junking the car without investigating you beyond a quick internet price search. When the car is worth $10k running perfectly as many 986s are, it is hard to pay up to double that for an engine. It isn't like these will be collectibles and the emotional attachment of the owner may not be as high as we saw with 914s and 911s. Plus lots of 986 owners have a very different economic profile from the 914/911 owners. (Not disputing the worth of your work or the value received for the money you charge...just that it is high relative to the value of the car's value and so the sample you get is very selective. If my engine blows, I'll ship you my car but it wouldn't make economic sense as I could replace the car for 50-75% of the replacement engine cost. I'll do it for emotional reasons and because I can and not everyone is in that position.)

And I don't understand your wording that "so few M96s make it to that point". You don't hear from 85k+ Boxster owners who aren't having trouble so how can you compare failures to success numbers and say "so few"?

You said it Mike.

It is all about sample size, but more importantly, a non-biased sample.

My 2000 S is approaching 80k miles and I have (thankfully) not encountered any of these issues yet. This does not make me an authority on these cars because 1 out of the many millions in the world has not gone bad by 80k.

It is my belief that the best thing anyone can do is to heed the warnings of those in the know, but at the same time use just a modicum of common sense to understand how and why the experts hold such opinions to be true. Nothing can beat backing up one's statements with hard facts and figures, after all, a measurement is not an opinion.

[Jake Raby]

Mike, Lots of the people who contact us have high mileage cars.. A chunk of these have already had a replacement engine, but another good chunk hasn't and they still run fine.

BUT many have just bought the cars with high mileage and gotten them at very good prices because they have high mileage. The majority of what we create is applied to dual purpose DE and street cars that spend more time on the track than the street.. More and more high mileage (less valuable) Boxsters are being made into dedicated tack cars and these people not only want reliability but they also want and need more power.

To them the factory can't give them what they want and therefore the prices we charge for a more thoroughbred engine are much more acceptable. Boxster track cars that are prepped well bring more money than street cars with low mileage and that also lessens the pain from spending money on a blueprinted engine thats built for the application.

I will say that cars that make it past 85K generally won't see any of the standard failures that are most common.. The majority of the failure calls we get range in mileage from 30-65K with an occasional call from a 70K+ owner.

We have begun asking callers if we can record their conversations with us for comparison and posting later, so within 18 months or so we'll have recorded data that we've logged from notes as well as MP3 files from phone chats that can be posted... You'll see that its the same story over and over almost to the word.

You have to remember that only a small portion of Boxster owners are internet junkies.. We have a lot that contact us who have no idea what the prices we charge are or even what an IMS bearing failure is. They are referred to us by our ad in Excellence or by word of mouth as being "The guys that can do the repairs" so they call us absolutely unknowing.. In fact I refer more people to our site than already know about it and send messages of inquiry to us. Heck some people have a failure then go to the dealership and receive a diagnosis only to hear about some broken shaft in the engine and that triggers a google search and then they find out about us.

We are now approaching the time that heavily driven cars are having engines begin to wear out rather than fail.. These made it past the most vulnerable points and continued on to the point where they are consuming oil and making rattling sounds. The amount of these is much higher now than it was a year ago and we are learning from these core engines when they are dissected.

And now what we charge is very close to the factory replacement engines from Porsche, much closer than it was this time last year.. Our prices have stayed the same and even dropped as volumes have increased, while the factory engines continue to see elevated costs periodically.

The people who are purchasing the 986 to be recreated as a track vehicle are generally a little different than the 986 owner who drives the car daily.. Some have a Turbo in their stable or another 911 and they desire the 986 due to it's superior handling. Its also considered a somewhat disposable car if they were to slide off the track, crash and burn.. Then they rip off the suspension, engine and tranny and throw those into another high mileage tub that they might have purchased for as little as 3500 bucks... Then they do it all over again.

You don't see many of this personality type on the forums...

It all really boils down to luck.. So drive the damn car and just don't worry about it. If it breaks you do have options.(It could be worse if those options didn't exist.)

[edevlin]

"I will say that cars that make it past 85K generally won't see any of the standard failures that are most common.. The majority of the failure calls we get range in mileage from 30-65K with an occasional call from a 70K+ owner."


Thank you Jake , thats what I like to hear, I know you never know, but I will take any sort of encouraging news about our engines I can get.... 90K on the clock and still rolling.


Ed

:dance: :dance: :dance:

[rob76turbo]

Thanks Jake, Mike, et al.

These are good opinions / perspectives to weigh as we rack up the miles. My 01-S is getting ready to go under the knife during the holidays. I track the car 6+ time per year and have noticed the clutch is starting to go. So, I have decided to replace a lot of parts during the holiday break. But first....I am going to use up the last of the clutch teaching two teenage boys how to drive a stick.

I plan to replace IMS, RMS, Clutch (Spec 2), Fly wheel (but I am really debating LWFW vs Dual Mass), half shaft boots, wheel bearings, mounts, ETC. And will start buying the parts in a week or so....my Christmas present to myself and the Box-S.

Thanks once again to Jake and Charles Navarro for taking the time (and $$$) to develop the parts that keep our cars on the road (or in my case...the track).

[sd_boxster]

If Porsche believed that any of their powerplants was supposed to last forever, they'd offer a lifetime powertrain warranty, like the one I've got on my Jeep Patriot. Porsche does not intend for their vehicles to last forever - they intend for them to be performance machines.

The harder you use a piece of equipment, the sooner it will wear out. Indy car motors are designed to go 1200 miles between rebuilds, not because they are crappy motors, but because of how they are used.

Are there weak points in the Boxster engine design? Yes, I think Jake has proved that. Will replacing those guarantee you still won't blow a motor? Nope. They may buy peace of mind, but there is no guarantee. If you have the money and the inclination, absolutely go the Flat6 route. I personally will drive the hell out of my 986 until something breaks, and then I will decide if I want to go with a flat6 upgrade or dump the car as a roller and move on to something else - maybe a Cayman PDK, if my car lasts long enough for prices to come down.

If you can't live with the FACT that any machine will break (even really expensive ones), that the Boxster may be more prone than other machines to break, and that driving it hard will increase the odds that it will break, sell it.

If you can't afford to replace a motor but want a Porsche, buy CPO, don't ever track it or do anything else to jeapordize your warranty coverage, and keep it until the warranty is up and then sell it to someone else. (Note: Please don't be one of the tools I overhear at the track discussing how to best defraud the dealer if they blow a motor at the races. Man, that pisses me off.)

If you don't fall into either of the two preceding categories, go climb into your Boxster, crank the key with your left hand (ain't that a hoot?), feel that flat 6 rumble to life behind your kidneys, and go find yourself a twisty road. Driving a Boxster is like that beautiful girl you dated when you were 16. Who knows how long this is going to last? Enjoy every minute while you can.

[husker boxster]

Jake and Charles -

Have you run across any 987 IMS problems? If so, approx how many compared to 986?

I've watched the "my engine just blew up" posts and none of them are from owners of 987s. I asked in one post if anyone with a 987 had experienced an IMS failure and no one replied. The OP stated a design change was implemented in the 987 and I'm wondering if it appears Porsche did it better.

What have you found?

[CenterIsl]

Originally Posted by husker boxster

I've watched the "my engine just blew up" posts and none of them are from owners of 987s.

Actually, there's a 2005 near the end of the "Short Lived Engine Survey" thread, which had 67 posts. It wasn't obvious how many catastrophic failures there were since the the thread wandered around a bit. I do recall another thread - can't quickly locate it - where there was a running count...guessing it was in the 30 failures range when it petered out.

Somewhat related to this overall reliability issue, there's also an RMS poll that shows about 30% of respondants experiencing RMS leaks.

But...there are over 19 THOUSAND registered members of this forum, and - as has been pointed out seveal times - the registered users of this forum are likely atypical of all boxster owners. So...dozens of complaints from thousands of owners doesn't seem worth obsessing over. Just IMHO.

As John Maynard Keynes said, "In the long run, we're all dead."

[GEARHEADTX]

I am new to the forum and owner of 2003 Boxster. I was fully aware of the IMS shaft failure issue when I purchased the car used. I am also an engineer and in my line of work, statistics mean a lot. In many discussions on this topic, I have seen many sad stories as I am sure I would have shared if I had experienced the same problem but what is missing in these stories are the condition of the car, service history, and statistics regarding this problem. I realize we all hold a very high expectation for these cars given their pedigree and the company claims however, they are much better in terms of design compared to other cars in their class. No one has really shared the statistics of this problem and conditions under which this problem occurs. I am sure if you browsed the internet, you would find similar or comparable stories of failures in other high marquee cars such as BMW and Mercedes. Ferrrari's are notorious for failures but people buy and drive them because of what they are not because of how many times they have to fix them.