five alarm emergency for Lil B

[Lil bastard]

Originally Posted by Fred Demara

this is a good plan, but a suggestion. Mark the crank pulley with a dab of white out (if it doesn't have a clear marking on it) and count how many turns you rotated the crank.

If you're timing is off, you car "rewind" the crank to the original position...it'll help you start over...

..I've done a few different belts on different models, and I don't think I've ever done one without at some point being completely worried I messed up - a little fear here is a good thing, considering the consequences of a mistake. I bet you've nailed it...keep us posted

On an interference engine you do NOT want to rotate the crank if the timing is off. That forces the pistons up into the open valves! If you have that issue for more than a few degrees, you need to remove the head, set the crank to TDC (different for many motors - the FIAT uses the #4 cylinder, NOT the #1), then rotate the cams (off the block) to their approximate positions before reinstalling the head.

yes, of course.

but if you're rotating the crank, and you're off by 1degree, it's possible to rotate the crank several times before the valves met the piston and feel any kind of resistance...so knowing how many times you turned the crank will allow you to return to the starting point.

Originally Posted by Lil bastard

On an interference engine you do NOT want to rotate the crank if the timing is off. That forces the pistons up into the open valves! If you have that issue for more than a few degrees, you need to remove the head, set the crank to TDC (different for many motors - the FIAT uses the #4 cylinder, NOT the #1), then rotate the cams (off the block) to their approximate positions before reinstalling the head.

[Lil bastard]

Originally Posted by Fred Demara

yes, of course.

but if you're rotating the crank, and you're off by 1degree, it's possible to rotate the crank several times before the valves met the piston and feel any kind of resistance...so knowing how many times you turned the crank will allow you to return to the starting point.

OK... we mostly agree. I just would not personally tell anyone who suspects a timing problem to rotate the crank, esp. on the net where I'm not able to see for myself how far off it may or may not be.

Another thing occurs to me though. If installing a belt, has the lister checked valve for adjustment? If not, and the car uses the old inverted bucket-type tappets (lots of Brit cars, SAABs etc. use this), it's necessary to pull the head to rotate the cams to check the valve clearances, then mic the shims to determine which have to be swapped and by how much. It's an ugly job which basically needs to be done twice to be sure everything's correct. If this is the case, your manual will give you an OK range for the valve clearances. If such, you want to set the valves to the most generous setting within the OK range because as the mileage piles up, the valves get pushed deeper and deeper into their seats closing the gap between the tappet and the cam lobe. Setting the clearances to the maximum allowable spec prolongs the time that the valves will remain in spec before needing to do the procedure again. I'm not certain the FIAT Twin uses this method, but if so, it's worth doing this work before installing the T-belt.

we 100% agree - but at some point you have to hand rotate the crank - it's just part of the job, and being able to return to the point where you might have been closest to TDC is of tremendous value.

Originally Posted by Lil bastard

OK... we mostly agree. I just would not personally tell anyone who suspects a timing problem to rotate the crank, esp. on the net where I'm not able to see for myself how far off it may or may not be.

[eightsandaces]

Originally Posted by Lil bastard

On an interference engine you do NOT want to rotate the crank if the timing is off. That forces the pistons up into the open valves! If you have that issue for more than a few degrees, you need to remove the head, set the crank to TDC (different for many motors - the FIAT uses the #4 cylinder, NOT the #1), then rotate the cams (off the block) to their approximate positions before reinstalling the head.

How could it possibly be off that much is shut down, not moved and previously in synch? I'm going to email your pal, work net was down all afternoon.

[Lil bastard]

Originally Posted by eightsandaces

How could it possibly be off that much is shut down, not moved and previously in synch? I'm going to email your pal, work net was down all afternoon.

It may not be all that much off, but turning the crank is not the way to find that out. Think of the motor like a symphony of parts, when everything hits their mark, there's beautiful music, but when they are out of sync, the music (read performance) is awful and sometimes injurious to the parts.

We're on the internet here... you don't know me and I don't know you, your skill level or the actual positions of any of the various timing marks - only what you tell me. I'm not going to tell you anything which could injure your car. Would I turn my crank a degree of two - sure, but slowly with a socket and breaker bar trying to feel (as a safecracker would) what the internals are doing. At the slightest resistance, I'd stop. That's one reason I recommended you turn the crank rather than push the car in gear... you have no feel for what's going on until it's waay too late.

BTW, I'm not a friend of Mike Bouse, I've never met him. But, my late friend knew him or of him, and told me that he lived in MI and he would respond to emails sent to him on Fiat questions, plus I've seen his name mentioned - in some reverence - on some of the FIAT boards where he's offered to send procedures to those emailing him. I put it up here figuring it was worth a shot for you. I assume you probably already know this, but my friend also gave me the link to what he said was the best FIAT parts source in the country - C. Obert & Co. out in Cali - C. Obert & Co.

I don't have this stuff right at my fingertips, but in response to you, I went and reviewed a bunch of past correspondence and emails my late friend and I had exchanged through the years. It was kinda nice to be able to go back and re-read them and remember what good times we've had and what a truly good friend Owen was to me... R.I.P.

It is much, but better to find out rotating the crank by hand and finding out before you button up the engine. When you rotate by hand, you'll feel the slight resistance.

If you think the you did the job correctly, but you're missed by a little, finding out by rotating the crank by hand will prevent you from doing any major damage to the engine.

It's a "just in case I messed up" measure, it's something do after every timing belt job.

Originally Posted by Lil bastard

It may not be all that much off, but turning the crank is not the way to find that out.

[eightsandaces]

OK Progress report and important question, many thanks for all responses, it's good to get all opinions and research done before holding wrenches. Mike did get back to me, seems like a very nice and knowledgeable man. Regarding the crank turner, I have the luxury of the factory Fiat tool.

The bottom line question is this:

Will hand turning the crank with belts on as slowly as humanly possible and stopping at the least bit of resistance hurt anything?

The auxillary cam as it turns out has a fuel pump cam on the end of it, the instructions state the cam can be returned to the 1 o'clock position irrespective of the valves and crank, boy is that a "hole tightening" sentence to accept. It was rather ambiguous as it then says it has to be close to the other marks, what? Lil' B has me so jumped up I'll be turning the crank like my EOD cousin takes on an assignment!!

oh the pressure!

BTW B, I'm a decent wrench, (smart enough to do homework) but dumb enough not to have found all this before starting the project. My father, still an AFST member mechanic, turned 82 today, he just doesn't remember anymore. He's counting on me!

PS Steel plugs, Aluminum head, will a break free soak do the job?

Thank you all.

[Lil bastard]

Originally Posted by eightsandaces

OK Progress report and important question, many thanks for all responses, it's good to get all opinions and research done before holding wrenches. Mike did get back to me, seems like a very nice and knowledgeable man. Regarding the crank turner, I have the luxury of the factory Fiat tool.

The bottom line question is this:

Will hand turning the crank with belts on as slowly as humanly possible and stopping at the least bit of resistance hurt anything?

The auxillary cam as it turns out has a fuel pump cam on the end of it, the instructions state the cam can be returned to the 1 o'clock position irrespective of the valves and crank, boy is that a "hole tightening" sentence to accept. It was rather ambiguous as it then says it has to be close to the other marks, what? Lil' B has me so jumped up I'll be turning the crank like my EOD cousin takes on an assignment!!

oh the pressure!

BTW B, I'm a decent wrench, (smart enough to do homework) but dumb enough not to have found all this before starting the project. My father, still an AFST member mechanic, turned 82 today, he just doesn't remember anymore. He's counting on me!

PS Steel plugs, Aluminum head, will a break free soak do the job?

Thank you all.

Glad the email worked out for you. IMHO, you need to be like an EOD tech when spinning the crank... you'd be surprised how little resistance is required to bend stuff on some engines. But, as you describe it, I'm comfortable that you're safe to proceed.

BTW, I wasn't impuning your abilities at all, it's just that when someone here gets on and says stuff like "I know it's a little off", or "it may have moved", the last recommendation I'm gonna make long-distance is to spin the crank.

I've done a lot of mechanical timing in my day, in fact just a month ago I completed a valve adjustment and timing chain replacement on a 48 valve jaguar V12 with shimmed bucket tappets from a '94 XJS Cab. That was arguably the worst automotive experience of my life - checking clearances, micing shims, moving shims around where possible and figuring out what shims needed to be ordered for what cylinders. I finally had to write an Excel program just to keep it all straight - like crawling on the edge of a straight razor!

But, as involved as that was, I once did a FIAT/OSCA few-off 1200 race engine which had no reference marks whatever. You had to mount a degree wheel on the crank and a dial indicator on the cam lobe, then run a straight edge from the degree wheel to the cams - the whole thing depended upon your seat-of-the-pants accuracy... and you think you're experiencing performance anxiety?

A long time ago, I made a tool to make sure everything stayed as set when I had a Jenson-Healey w/ Lotus 910 engine. I took a piece of bar stock and spot welded some welder's spring clamps to it to hold the cam sprockets in place, the other end on the crank pulley. I then made a reference mark on the block w/ a paint pen. When it came time to add the belt, I could check the reference mark and be certain nothing had moved.

Realize that the first time is scary. But, once you've done it, the next will be a piece of cake. IIRC, the FIAT motor needs a new belt every 30k mi. So, if you keep the car long enough, you'll get to visit this again. From the sound of your experience, and your anxiety, I believe you'll be fine. You can only test the water so far... eventually you just have to jump into the pool.

[Blue-S]

The 1971 Fiat 124 Spider with the 1608cc is most Fiat buffs' favorite early (chrome bumper) US-market spider. Nice car! I haven't worked on a 124 Spider for almost 20 years, but I did engine work on all the Spiders that I owned from 1986-1991. I still have a couple of 1800 cylinder heads and some other stuff in the garage!

The auxiliary shaft drives only the oil pump and the fuel pump on the 1608cc engine, because the distributor is up on the exhaust cam tower and is driven from the exhaust cam. You don't really have to time the aux shaft exactly on the 1592, 1608 and 1756cc twincams; only the 1979-1982 2.0L engine in the 2000 Spiders is capable of having interference issues between the fuel pump lobe on the aux shaft and the crankshaft. This is DEFINITELY an interference engine -- pistons can hit valves if the timing is off badly enough. Intake and exhaust valves can hit each other, too.

You COULD try to install the timing belt and carefully turn the engine over by hand, feeling for interference. If I were in your situation, I would rather set the crank & cams to the timing marks, then install the belt. To do this, first verify that all of the pistons are NOT at top dead center. You can do that by pulling all of the spark plugs and dropping a LONG phillips screwdriver or 1/4" drive socket extension (like 12" long) down the #1 spark plug hole. Verify the height of the screwdriver (by eyeball or measurement) then do the same with the screwdriver in the cylinder #2 spark plug hole. Carefully turn the crankshaft slightly to see if the piston is going up or down. You want to have the "higher" piston going down, and the "lower" piston going up. You don't need to move it a lot -- just ensure that none of the piston pairs (cylinders 1 & 4 or cylinders 2 & 3) is close to its highest point of travel.

With all the pistons significantly below deck, you can turn the cams without worrying about crashing a valve into a piston. Use a wrench (not a ratchet) to very carefully turn one of the cams so that the timing hole in the cam sprocket lines up with the pointer that is built into the timing cover mounting bracket. You need to use a wrench while turning the cam so that you can keep the cam's motion under control - it may try to "snap" ahead at certain points of rotation due to the position of the cam lobes. If you feel a hard resistance point, STOP because you have a valve hitting another valve that is being held open by the other cam. You may have to juggle both cams a bit in order to avoid crashing valves into each other while moving toward lining up the timing holes in both cam sprockets with the pointers that are built into the timing cover's upper mounting bracket.

Now that both cams have been lined up (and no valves were bent in the process), carefully turn the crankshaft so that the crank timing sprocket's timing mark is lined up correctly. I can't remember what that mark looks like, but since you have a factory manual you should have a pretty good idea of what to look for. For bonus points, align the aux shaft sprocket more-or-less where they show it on the timing illustration. Next, install and tension the belt. Turn the crankshaft over TWO revolutions by hand, checking for any abnormalities. Your timing marks should line up after two revolutions of the crank. If not, then one of the components was not timed correctly. If the aux shaft timing mark is off a bit, it doesn't matter on the 1608, so don't worry about it. Once you get it running, you should dig out your timing light and verify the ignition timing. I always liked 10 degrees BTDC at idle. It's simple to set, because the distributor has centrifugal advance so there are no vacuum lines to plug. If it still has the points ignition, you should check (and possibly adjust) dwell BEFORE setting ignition timing.

Enjoy!

BTW -- The green Spider shown above could be a 1968 or 1969 US-market car, since those did have the wonderful little round side markers. The Euro market Spiders seemed to keep the round side markers for the majority of their model run. The green car also shows evidence of mounting holes for the US-market front bumper over-riders...which were not on Euro cars.

- Greg

momentum is your enemy - and your ears are your friend. If you're off by a little, it will take several turns before you feel and hear it.

It's very easy to bend a valve by rotating the crank with a wrench, but by hand, it's much much harder. You also have the advantage of knowing your firing sequence - so as each cylinder approaches it's tdc, watch the positioning of your valves.

And remember to keep track of how many times you turned the crank, if (and from the sounds of things, this isn't going to be a problem) you're off, and you feel like you're fighting to turn the engine, rewind the crank to where you started.

Looking forward to hearing a great success story tomorrow!

Originally Posted by eightsandaces

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The bottom line question is this:

Will hand turning the crank with belts on as slowly as humanly possible and stopping at the least bit of resistance hurt anything?


Thank you all.