read this please

Originally Posted by Brucelee

Sadly, I would conclude that like most or all German car makers, they care not a whit about the long term quality of their products.

I wish I were wrong.

Having said that, I love the way the Box looks and drives

BL you really think that? I have read countless issues of Excellence with high mileage rebuilt 911 cars in them. It seems like the sleeved, water cooled flat sixes started the problem. In a recent issue, they spoke about the new 911 engine having reduced rotational mass and weight, they ditched the intermediate shaft, which I think is the true culprit. I worked at Kodak, I have seen first hand that the "bleeding edge" of Technology always spawns problems and mods. It is also true that exotic sports cars are just that, I don't know what the Achilles heels are of Lambos but I have read many a Ferrari Halloween horror story. Having typed all this, I'll still be pissed if my 29,450 2.5 motor doesn't make 100K.

[Brucelee]

Originally Posted by EE3racing

BL you really think that? I have read countless issues of Excellence with high mileage rebuilt 911 cars in them. It seems like the sleeved, water cooled flat sixes started the problem. In a recent issue, they spoke about the new 911 engine having reduced rotational mass and weight, they ditched the intermediate shaft, which I think is the true culprit. I worked at Kodak, I have seen first hand that the "bleeding edge" of Technology always spawns problems and mods. It is also true that exotic sports cars are just that, I don't know what the Achilles heels are of Lambos but I have read many a Ferrari Halloween horror story. Having typed all this, I'll still be pissed if my 29,450 2.5 motor doesn't make 100K.

Porsche created the liquid cooled flat 6 in 1997. Thats 12 years to get it right????? RMS, IMS etc.

I could go on but I have no respect for a company that treats its customers as lab rats. I don't see BMW as terribly different, although their engines seem to hold up. Not so the auto trans.

Again, I love the engineering, handling, performance and looks of the Box. I hate that the company seems to be indifferent to their cars breaking and attendant costs.

IMHO.

Originally Posted by Brucelee

Porsche created the liquid cooled flat 6 in 1997. Thats 12 years to get it right????? RMS, IMS etc.

I could go on but I have no respect for a company that treats its customers as lab rats. I don't see BMW as terribly different, although their engines seem to hold up. Not so the auto trans.

Again, I love the engineering, handling, performance and looks of the Box. I hate that the company seems to be indifferent to their cars breaking and attendant costs.

IMHO.

I'll give you this, the dealerships are awful, meanwhile, the Saab dealer smootches my dad's behind.

[Jaxonalden]

United we stand, divided we fall and they will continue to ignore the problem.

I totally disagree with Blue2000S's initial statement of;

"I really believe in buyer beware and don't buy something that you can't afford.(WTF does that mean? If I can't afford to replace my $15K engine in 30K miles means I can't afford it? Point is, I shouldn't have to replace it.) I'm happy to know that if something goes wrong with my car, I have a Jake Raby rebuild/upgrade waiting for me. I'll happily pay the $17k for the power and reliability it affords."

Do you have so much money that you can afford to have a company ignore a known problem and pay for the fix yourself? I'm all for the class action, with the PCA and this forum we should be able pool all the evidence needed to prove the flaws in the engine design.

[roadracer311]

Lawsuit? really?

To me, trying to get a free warranty put in place retroactively is like making a deal (buying the car for a given price, dealer or private party) and then trying to change the terms of the deal after the deal is done.

As others have said... not much has changed with these motors in 10 years. Anyone with access to the internet should know the risks involved in buying a Porsche.

It's a (mostly) free market economy. We all have the option of voting with our wallets. If Porsche feels that they are losing sales due to a bad reputation for reliability, then they will have to address reliability (sounds like they may have on the new models with no IMS). The existing Porsches should be (and for the most part, are) priced according to the risk involved and the maintenance cost involved.

The solution is to say "it's ok I'll own one anyway" suck it up and own one
or "it's not ok, this thing is a time bomb" and don't own one

Porsche never promised they would be like other cars and get >100k miles.
We all had access to the internet before making our purchases. (unless you bought a brand new one when they first came out).

Originally Posted by roadracer311

Lawsuit? really?

To me, trying to get a free warranty put in place retroactively is like making a deal (buying the car for a given price, dealer or private party) and then trying to change the terms of the deal after the deal is done.

As others have said... not much has changed with these motors in 10 years. Anyone with access to the internet should know the risks involved in buying a Porsche.

It's a (mostly) free market economy. We all have the option of voting with our wallets. If Porsche feels that they are losing sales due to a bad reputation for reliability, then they will have to address reliability (sounds like they may have on the new models with no IMS). The existing Porsches should be (and for the most part, are) priced according to the risk involved and the maintenance cost involved.

The solution is to say "it's ok I'll own one anyway" suck it up and own one
or "it's not ok, this thing is a time bomb" and don't own one

Porsche never promised they would be like other cars and get >100k miles.
We all had access to the internet before making our purchases. (unless you bought a brand new one when they first came out).

Given the intensive almost cult like attention these cars receive, 100K on the odometer should be a minimum expectation. I drove my 944 to 105K , it had very expensive work done to it along the way but it was still a solid engine when I sold it.

[blue2000s]

Originally Posted by Jaxonalden

United we stand, divided we fall and they will continue to ignore the problem.

I totally disagree with Blue2000S's initial statement of;

"I really believe in buyer beware and don't buy something that you can't afford.(WTF does that mean? If I can't afford to replace my $15K engine in 30K miles means I can't afford it? Point is, I shouldn't have to replace it.) I'm happy to know that if something goes wrong with my car, I have a Jake Raby rebuild/upgrade waiting for me. I'll happily pay the $17k for the power and reliability it affords."

Do you have so much money that you can afford to have a company ignore a known problem and pay for the fix yourself? I'm all for the class action, with the PCA and this forum we should be able pool all the evidence needed to prove the flaws in the engine design.

Just like RoadRacer311 says, if you bought the car after 2000, these were known issues and buyer beware. Right now, you know how much it costs to replace the engine so you know how much you need to be ready for the rainy day if it comes. If you're unwilling or unable to replace the engine or let the car sit with a dead engine, sell it.

The warranty on the car is the only length of time or mileage Porsche guarantees that the car will function, beyond that, you're on your own.

Capitalism folks, it's not without risks.

[Jaxonalden]

Originally Posted by blue2000s

Just like RoadRacer311 says, if you bought the car after 2000, these were known issues and buyer beware. Right now, you know how much it costs to replace the engine so you know how much you need to be ready for the rainy day if it comes. If you're unwilling or unable to replace the engine or let the car sit with a dead engine, sell it.

The warranty on the car is the only length of time or mileage Porsche guarantees that the car will function, beyond that, you're on your own.

Capitalism folks, it's not without risks.

Listen, there's a difference in a manufacturers warranty of the product and expected product life. The MTBF (mean time between failures) of these engine were and are know to the manufacture. The failure numbers are even higher than we know counting the ROW models. You say "Porsche guarantees that the car will function, beyond that, you're on your own." Known mechanical failures should be disclosed to the consumer and then let the consumer make the choice in purchasing or not. For you to state "if you bought the car after 2000, these were known issues and buyer beware" is bull****************. You must be some bean counter in your profession. These car should have had a sticker on the window that stated;
" Purchase of this automobile may require the buyer to replace or rebuild the engine at any time because of a known defect that has not and will not be addressed."
I think I and probably a couple other Boxster owners would have thought twice about purchasing one with this simple warning.

[boxster_s_boy_34]

Alright boys, here's the deal, lets all use a little common sense here. You can only build something so much one way or so much another way before you sacrafice. Porsches are a performance vehicle, and we should be glad that they do what they do with out the often engine "freshening" that Ferrari owners have to deal with. Take for example the Honda Civic, gutless wonder, 1,000,000 mile engine (a little exaggerated but you see where I'm going with this). The fact that these vehicles perform the way that they do and are less expensive to maintain than say a Viper that is actually a domestic car is pretty awesome!

[blue2000s]

Originally Posted by Jaxonalden

Listen, there's a difference in a manufacturers warranty of the product and expected product life. The MTBF (mean time between failures) of these engine were and are know to the manufacture. The failure numbers are even higher than we know counting the ROW models. You say "Porsche guarantees that the car will function, beyond that, you're on your own." Known mechanical failures should be disclosed to the consumer and then let the consumer make the choice in purchasing or not. For you to state "if you bought the car after 2000, these were known issues and buyer beware" is bull****************. You must be some bean counter in your profession. These car should have had a sticker on the window that stated;
" Purchase of this automobile may require the buyer to replace or rebuild the engine at any time because of a known defect that has not and will not be addressed."
I think I and probably a couple other Boxster owners would have thought twice about purchasing one with this simple warning.

As we all know, there's no data on the frequency of these engine failures. Is it 5% or 25%? It's easy to panic.

Porsche is under absolutely no legal obligation to fix an engine that's out of warranty, heck, they don't even need to offer a warranty at all legally. Do you see any kind of documentation from Porsche on the expected life of the engine or any other parts of the car?

Should they from a customer satisfaction standpoint? Yes, should they to keep customer loyalty? Yes. But they certainly don't have to.

You still have time to sell your car if it bothers you and you haven't had an engine failure.

By the way, you're getting the opinion of a mechanical engineer who understood the problem before buying the car and is willing to risk the purchase for the satisfaction that it brings. I may be in a different position from others on the board in that if the engine does fail, I will gladly move to the more robust Raby rebuild, but again, if you are worried about it and can't afford a replacement engine if it does happen, why do you still have the car?

[shaman1204]

Originally Posted by EE3racing

I'll give you this, the dealerships are awful, meanwhile, the Saab dealer smootches my dad's behind.

I think the dealerships have a lot to do with the problem. Example: I took my 01 in for the "clunk over rough surfaces" problem and they found three other problems. Fine and good, but they couldn't find the source of the clunking noise. After researching here and other forums I told them to check the rear control arms. Alas! It's the control arms. Problem not solved. Clunk still there.

A month or two ago my alternator took a crap, car went to an indy mechanic and they brought up the clunking noise on their own. They tried to pin-point it and told me basically it is probably some worn out bushings but the warranty company won't replace them if they are not visibly cracked/split, etc.

Could a Porsche mechanic not know this? Don't tell me they know nothing of this problem. If you search this forum and others it is a very common problem. Perhaps it was just the one dealership that I dealt with but it was the first and last time my car feels the hands of a "Certified Porsche Mechanic."