Hater galore in VA Beach

[eslai]

Originally Posted by Brucelee

These same folks may also fit into the mold whereby the
"rich" or well off can't ever pay enough to be "fair".


So, with Bill Gates, he should have been at taxed at a 95% of income for example.

To others, fair means the same. For example, a Value added tax or a flat income tax...

It's funny you should mention that. Bill Gates and Warren Buffet did a joint interview with some college students a while back. I caught it on PBS and I remember them talking about flat taxes. The interview is available on DVD I think, it's called "Buffett and Gates Go Back to School".

I wish I could find a transcript, all I found was this one video on YouTube that's taking forever to load. It was a fascinating interview all around.

If my memory serves me correctly, one of the students asked them if they'd prefer a flat tax system. They both basically responded saying that no, they feel that the rich aren't taxed *enough* in this country and that anyone that's rich and complaining about being taxed too much is just being greedy.

I kid you not--they made no bones about it.

Additionally, Buffett said the following in another interview:

"The taxation system has tilted towards the rich and away from the middle class in the last ten years. It's dramatic and I don't think it's appreciated and I think it should be addressed."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/10/30/watch-warren-buffett-cal_n_70455.html

That video also has him talking about hedge fund managers:

"Well they say they work hard and that in the process of working hard they make other people money and, [laughing] that's true about a whole bunch of people in the world but that doesn't entitle them to a preferential tax rate."


I was very impressed by their stances (and boy do I wish I had enough money to hold myself so righteously ), and it's probably the first time that I started seeing Bill as something other than the Anti-Christ.

But whoops, this is way off-topic now, sorry.

[Perfectlap]

well they would say that because they became billionaires a million years ago. Since then I doubt they have ever looked spent much time looking at electric bills, arguing with the waiter for mistakes on the bill or saying "oh ****************, gas up a quater!? f@ack me!!!".

You get to a point where you are stupid rich and don't care about taxes anymore.

That being said, of all the nations in the world, the wealthy carry the lightest load. Well I'm not sure what Switzerland and Austria are doing these days but Michael Schumacher think its swell!! Low taxes on the greatest concentration of millionaires and billionaires is a double edged sword. It helps create more well millionaires and billionaires but it also keeps their explosive income and investment growth in the last 20-25 years from keeping up with their rates of taxation. The Wall St. Journal ran a widely cited article recently about how the wealthiest 1% are now paying the lowest share of taxes in nearly 20 years.
Some say well they're still paying 40% of the taxes but that not so shocking when you consider how much of the nation's wealth a very small % of the population controls. And in the current economy their shipping the gains from those low tax rates to overseas economies where labor and manufacturing costs are much lower.
Meanwhile tax rates on people not making hundreds of thousands of dollars are a tad on the high side when you factor in how much of take home is eaten up by 'cost of living' expenses. And I'm NOT talking about Plasma TVs. I'm talking about insanely high housing prices, high home ulitility costs, out control college expenses, high food costs, health care through the roof and high fuel costs as well. Wages aren't keeping up and cost of living expenses are not being contained. So people said eff' it...I'm never going to catch up. Let's go down to Best Buy and get that 40 inch plasma and put it on the Best Buy card. What difference does another $3K home enteraintment center make when my house and kids college has me nearly one million dollars in debt (nearly all going to interest).

Warren Buffett and Bill Gates feel guilty about that. Billionaires guilt.
The poor bastards (those with merely less than $4 million) aren't so sympathetic.

[Brucelee]

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

well they would say that because they became billionaires a million years ago. Since then I doubt they have ever looked spent much time looking at electric bills, arguing with the waiter for mistakes on the bill or saying "oh ****************, gas up a quater!? f@ack me!!!".

You get to a point where you are stupid rich and don't care about taxes anymore.

That being said, of all the nations in the world, the wealthy carry the lightest load. Well I'm not sure what Switzerland and Austria are doing these days but Michael Schumacher think its swell!! Low taxes on the greatest concentration of millionaires and billionaires is a double edged sword. It helps create more well millionaires and billionaires but it also keeps their explosive income and investment growth in the last 20-25 years from keeping up with their rates of taxation. The Wall St. Journal ran a widely cited article recently about how the wealthiest 1% are now paying the lowest share of taxes in nearly 20 years.
Some say well they're still paying 40% of the taxes but that not so shocking when you consider how much of the nation's wealth a very small % of the population controls. And in the current economy their shipping the gains from those low tax rates to overseas economies where labor and manufacturing costs are much lower.
Meanwhile tax rates on people not making hundreds of thousands of dollars are a tad on the high side when you factor in how much of take home is eaten up by 'cost of living' expenses. And I'm NOT talking about Plasma TVs. I'm talking about insanely high housing prices, high home ulitility costs, out control college expenses, high food costs, health care through the roof and high fuel costs as well. Wages aren't keeping up and cost of living expenses are not being contained. So people said eff' it...I'm never going to catch up. Let's go down to Best Buy and get that 40 inch plasma and put it on the Best Buy card. What difference does another $3K home enteraintment center make when my house and kids college has me nearly one million dollars in debt (nearly all going to interest).

Warren Buffett and Bill Gates feel guilty about that. Billionaires guilt.
The poor bastards (those with merely less than $4 million) aren't so sympathetic.

The top 20% of wage earners in the US pay about 70% of total taxes.

Is that FAIR? Depends who you are!

[eslai]

Originally Posted by Brucelee

The top 20% of wage earners in the US pay about 70% of total taxes.

Is that FAIR? Depends who you are!

Definitely! I'm in that 20% and I think it's fair, but I don't expect everyone to feel the same.

When I consider that I paid less in taxes due to my deductions than most of the younger guys that work for me and make far less, I feel bad for them.

[Brucelee]

I am aware of the Gates and Buffet comments. Interestingly, BOTH have created foundations that are in many ways, huge tax shelters available to rich folks.

I am NOT saying they are hpocrites, as I would have no way of knowing that.

And, there is nothing that would stop them from giving all of their money away, to the fed govt today. It is clear neither one will do that.

What I am saying is that the notion of paying because you can pay is not inherently fair, it is inherently silly. Essentially what is says is, we reward failure and punish success. It also assumes that somehow, the Fed Govt is responsible for your succcess or that society is and is entitled to a larger share of what you generated. Does that make sense to you? Would you teach that to your children?




Kind of backwards thinking, I think.

[eslai]

Originally Posted by Brucelee

What I am saying is that the notion of paying because you can pay is not inherently fair, it is inherently silly. Essentially what is says is, we reward failure and punish success. It also assumes that somehow, the Fed Govt is responsible for your succcess or that society is and is entitled to a larger share of what you generated. Does that make sense to you? Would you teach that to your children?

I don't believe the notion is bad. I DO believe that everyone is responsible for maintaining our society. If you have more capability, I feel that you naturally carry more responsibility to put your life to good use and lead others in your example. Get involved, rather than build walls around your fortune and family.

I'll teach my kids to be selfless, to take care of others and to not be taken advantage of, regardless of their status or wealth.

Sadly, we *all* are at the point where we feel that the only thing the feds will do with our money is waste it [so why should we give more]. What a sad comment on the American condition, eh? If we all trusted the feds to not dick us around and if we felt the money was actually going to the betterment of our society, it sure would be easier to be noble.

[Brucelee]

I have NO PROBLEM at all with charity. Private charity is a wonderful thing and I give my share. Paying involuntary taxes to a govt that clearly pisses money away and is full of corruption is not my idea of supporting society.

I would like to pay for roads, schools, and defense. I abhor paying for many other things my tax dollars pay for against my will.

The problem with govt is its corrosive power. If I deal with most private entities, I can walk away. They can't make me pay for a product they sell in most cases.

With the govt, they can take your income, your taxes and in rare cases, you life.

[Brucelee]

Thomas Jefferson
Letters on Liberty and Power


"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground.1 This is so because those who gain positions of power tend always to extend the bounds of it. Power must always be constrained or limited else it will increase to the level that it will be despotic.

Jefferson wrote to Judge Spencer Roane in 1819, "It should be remembered, as an axiom of eternal truth in politics, that whatever power in any government is independent, is absolute also ...."2 With this principle of necessary limitation in mind, Jefferson declared "that a bill of rights is what the people are entitled to against every government on earth, general or particular; and what no just government should refuse, or rest upon inference."3

[Brucelee]

"The government which steps out of the ranks of the ordinary articles of consumption to select and lay under disproportionate burdens a particular one because it is a comfort, pleasing to the taste or necessary to the health and will therefore be bought, is in that particular a tyranny. Taxes on consumption like those on capital or income, to be just, must be uniform." --Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Smith, 1823. ME 15:432

[Quickurt]

Originally Posted by eslai

Sadly, we *all* are at the point where we feel that the only thing the feds will do with our money is waste it [so why should we give more]. What a sad comment on the American condition, eh? If we all trusted the feds to not dick us around and if we felt the money was actually going to the betterment of our society, it sure would be easier to be noble.

As much as I disagree with alot you say, you hit the nail on the head here.
I think this is the biggest difference between dyed in the wool liberals and the same style conservative: the liberals seem to be content with a gubment program being of good intention, while the conservative wants his money to actually go to a workable cure, fix the damned problem, and move on to the next, so that, someday, we will have it all fixed up and we can quit spending our money on problems.
I'll repeat my dream - imagine (eat your heart out, John) all the people both consuming tax money to exist and those employed to service them being employed in the productive private sector, all working for their own and their family's future, while only having to support government to provide for our defense and society's infrastructure. What would that tax rate be? 3%?
Gee, sounds like old Tommy Boy Jefferson, don't it?