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Old 12-28-2021, 09:10 AM   #1
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My IMS bearing replacement thread.

Of the 3 IMSBs that I have inspected this is the only one that I decided to replace. The 2 others I left in place after removing the seal to allow them to be lubricated by engine oil.
The bearing in the engine I am currently working on seemed OK when I removed the flange but I was worried by the fact that the “lubricant” that I found after pulling the seal looked like burned, hardened grease.



The seal.



Despite this the bearing turned smoothly and showed no signs of play. Finally I decided to replace it with the same bearing that came in the engine from the factory. It is supplied by 123bearings.com (NSK BD20-17-A-DDUA17NX01-NSK) $57.79 US plus shipping.

I am relying on the videos done by Ben Burner to help me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbM3c2V4scw&list=PLiya6G1pHhIYyzhlVzS_LwoIovrlv6_lv&index=7

I bought the same puller that Ben used to get the old bearing out and cobbled up the bits and pieces necessary to extract the bearing with the puller, here are a couple of pictures.



The puller during the first (unsuccessful) attempt.



The final setup… I added some washers because during the first pull the 2 washers started to deform. I should have made the cylinder longer too, 6.5 in instead of 5.5 in (it is made from a piece of 2in ID exhaust pipe).

The problem that I ran into was that the arms of the puller flexed enough that the claws of the puller passed through the center of the bearing. When I figured this out I fabricated a wedge that fits between the pullers arms, the thin edge of the wedge allows the puller to be inserted through the center of the bearing, then it is pulled into place so its thick end prevents the arms from deforming. This worked so I finally got the old bearing out.



Here is the wedge in the puller, insertion position and pulled back (using the yellow strings) to block the arms in place.

I would suggest perhaps starting with a puller like this.
https://www.amazon.ca/OTC-4581-Hammer-Bearing-Puller/dp/B0002SRH7Y

I have a question. The bearing has a thin spring clip that sits in the groove in the bearing and the groove in the block. I am wondering how to hold this clip in place while inserting the bearing. Will the chamfer on the block be enough to force it into place? Or should I tape it down in the bearing’s groove and count on the tape being stripped off as the bearing enters the block?

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Arctic Silver 2000 Boxster S - bought with a broken engine, back on the road with the engine replaced
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Old 12-28-2021, 09:27 AM   #2
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The factory method is to fab a ring compressor like collar that is very slightly too larger (a thousandth or so) that slides over the clip and depresses it into the grove, and which simply slides off the bearing as it is pressed into the shaft.
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Old 12-29-2021, 04:59 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by JFP in PA View Post
The factory method is to fab a ring compressor like collar that is very slightly too larger (a thousandth or so) that slides over the clip and depresses it into the grove, and which simply slides off the bearing as it is pressed into the shaft.
Thanks JFP, I am going to make something using the leftover 2" exhaust pipe that I used for my puller.

My next decision is whether to pull the outer seal off the bearing. I am leaning towards removing it.
The options that I see are:
1) Leave the seal in place and hope for the best. This would probably be fine for the time I will own the car, given my age and the kilometrage that I do each year. What I don't like about this option is that the original problem with the bearing is not addressed. There is the possibility of a low mileage failure as seen occasionally when the Boxster was new and eventually the grease will be washed out of the bearing and a later failure is a possibility. The original bearing was still functioning at 144587 Km (89842 mi) but the lack of lubrication that I saw when I removed the seal worries me.
2) Leave the seal in place and then remove the seal the next time that the clutch is changed. Again this would probably be fine for me, the clutch that will be on the car when the engine is reinstalled will likely outlast me.
3) Remove the seal and make the bearing oil lubricated from the beginning. The only downside to this is the possibility that little pieces of metal or plastic that are present in the oil might find their way into the bearing. Oil filters that I have inspected since I bought the car have always been clean. What I like about this option is that it solves the underlying problem with this bearing, i.e. - over time the grease is washed out of the bearing and it is under lubricated.

For my peace of mind option 3 is likely the best, I like the idea of the new bearing running in a nice warm oil bath.

There is a fourth option...
4) I am over thinking this!
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Arctic Silver 2000 Boxster S - bought with a broken engine, back on the road with the engine replaced
Green 2000 Boxster 5-speed and 1978 928 auto
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Last edited by elgyqc; 12-30-2021 at 05:36 AM. Reason: correction
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Old 12-30-2021, 05:12 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elgyqc View Post
Of the 3 IMSBs that I have inspected this is the only one that I decided to replace. The 2 others I left in place after removing the seal to allow them to be lubricated by engine oil.
The bearing in the engine I am currently working on seemed OK when I removed the flange but I was worried by the fact that the “lubricant” that I found after pulling the seal looked like burned, hardened grease.
There is a picture in post #5 of this thread.
Going through my original engine

Despite this the bearing turned smoothly and showed no signs of play. Finally I decided to replace it with the same bearing that came in the engine from the factory. It is supplied by 123bearings.com (NSK BD20-17-A-DDUA17NX01-NSK) $57.79 US plus shipping.

I am relying on the videos done by Ben Burner to help me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbM3c2V4scw&list=PLiya6G1pHhIYyzhlVzS_LwoIovrlv6_lv&index=7

I bought the same puller that Ben used to get the old bearing out and cobbled up the bits and pieces necessary to extract the bearing with the puller, here are a couple of pictures.



The puller during the first (unsuccessful) attempt.



The final setup… I added some washers because during the first pull the 2 washers started to deform. I should have made the cylinder longer too, 6.5 in instead of 5.5 in (it is made from a piece of 2in ID exhaust pipe).

The problem that I ran into was that the arms of the puller flexed enough that claws of the puller passed through the center of the bearing. When I figured this out I fabricated a wedge that fits between the pullers arms, the thin edge of the wedge allows the puller to be inserted through the center of the bearing, then it is pulled into place so its thick end prevents the arms from deforming. This worked so I finally got the old bearing out.



Here is the wedge in the puller, insertion position and pulled back (using the yellow strings) to block the arms in place.

I would suggest perhaps starting with a puller like this.
https://www.amazon.ca/OTC-4581-Hammer-Bearing-Puller/dp/B0002SRH7Y

I have a question. The bearing has a thin spring clip that sits in the groove in the bearing and the groove in the block. I am wondering how to hold this clip in place while inserting the bearing. Will the chamfer on the block be enough to force it into place? Or should I tape it down in the bearing’s groove and count on the tape being stripped off as the bearing enters the block?
I used a blind hole bearing puller which has a circular edge that sits on the inner surface of the inner ring. Pulling this bearing out from the shaft requires quite a bit of force and the puller worked pretty well. You can look it up on my build thread.

As for the snap ring: I guided the snap ring into the groove with a screwdriver while pressing the bearing in. I heated up the IMS and cooled the bearing down beforehand.
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Old 01-07-2022, 02:46 PM   #5
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I am ready to install the new bearing but I have been putting it off while I ponder whether to replace the flange with the new model that has a ribbed seal in place of the o-ring. As I understand it the only advantage is less chance of an oil leak. Up to now the old o-ring flange has worked for me in 3 different engines.
I could also replace the IMSB centre bolt with the improved one that comes with the Pelican kit... as far as I know it is not available as a separate part so I would have to buy the whole kit just to have the bolt. Is the failure of the original bolt really an issue?
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Arctic Silver 2000 Boxster S - bought with a broken engine, back on the road with the engine replaced
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Old 01-07-2022, 03:36 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elgyqc View Post
I am ready to install the new bearing but I have been putting it off while I ponder whether to replace the flange with the new model that has a ribbed seal in place of the o-ring. As I understand it the only advantage is less chance of an oil leak. Up to now the old o-ring flange has worked for me in 3 different engines.
I could also replace the IMSB centre bolt with the improved one that comes with the Pelican kit... as far as I know it is not available as a separate part so I would have to buy the whole kit just to have the bolt. Is the failure of the original bolt really an issue?
No, but failure of the sealant on the bolt causing oil leaks is...............
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Old 02-10-2022, 11:43 AM   #7
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While waiting for some parts I put together some thoughts on the IMSB problem from my point of view.

I don’t pretend to be an expert on the InterMediate Shaft (IMS) bearing (IMSB) problem in M96 Porsche engines, but I consider myself an informed observer who has spend a lot of time reading about others opinions and experiences as well as a bit of hands on experience. There is not much original here, but I haven’t seen where all this information is brought together and made available. With a bit of logical analysis.
First some facts.
1) The original bearing from the factory is a sealed ball bearing lubricated by the grease originally packed into it.
2) In many cases, after a certain mileage, the grease has been washed out by engine oil but there is not enough oil or perhaps not enough fresh oil to properly lubricate the bearing which can lead to failure. I base this statement on the many observations reported on various forums and technical sites.
I don’t think this is disputed.
3) It seems that process by which the grease is eliminated is the following.
The IMS is a hollow shaft of about 2” in diameter and over a foot long that comes from the factory filled with genuine Porsche… air. When the engine warms up the air expands and tries to exit the shaft, the only way it can do that is at the end containing the bearing, either through the bearing seals or around the inner or outer surfaces of the bearing.
When the engine cools down a partial vacuum is created and whatever is outside of the bearing is pulled in. Outside the bearing is oil, since most of the bearing is sitting in oil and air. Logically after enough cycles the seals will be compromised to the point that a small amount of oil will pass through the bearing, in both directions eventually removing all the grease and leaving some oil in the IMS.
Proof of this? Many observations of oil in varying quantities flowing out of the IMS after removing an IMS bearing and the lack of grease in the IMSBs.
Is this disputed? I have not seen other explanations.
(An aside; could this problem have been avoided if Porsche had drilled a hole in the IMS to prevent the pressure and vacuum build up?)
4) The oil in the bearing and in the shaft does not seem to circulate enough that it is renewed with fresh oil and it is questionable, at least in some cases, that there is enough to properly lubricate the bearing. I am speculating a bit here. Removing the outer seals on the bearing has been seen as a way to protect the bearing by allowing it to be constantly lubricated by crankcase oil.
5) The IMSB is bathed in oil. See post #53 of this thread.
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So removing seal allows lubrication by oil, not by oil mist as has been suggested by some. In a general discussion on bearing lubrication the LN Engineering site states that the oil level should be much lower than it is in an M96 engine, that a too high oil level can generate heat and is not optimal. But, elsewhere, they also suggest removing the bearing seals is better than doing nothing.
6) It seems that the double row bearing used up until 2001 is more reliable than the single row bearing used in later engines. I don’t think this is disputed.

There is also a debate on whether the fundamental problem with the IMSB was that it was too small for the application or that it should have been properly lubricated… or both. In my opinion the fact that the single row bearing fails more often would indicate that it is overstressed. The double row it would seem is usually OK if it doesn’t lose its lubrication.

I have personally inspected 3 IMSBs in place, all where double row bearings from model year 2000 engines. All three had had the grease washed out. All three turned smoothly with no indication of wear. Two had some oil in the bearing, so I removed the outer seals and left them in place. The third one had almost no oil and the “lubricant” that I found after pulling the seal looked like burned, hardened grease. There is a photo at the beginning of this thread.
I have removed this one and am in the process of replacing it. Unfortunately I have no way of testing the integrity of the bearing seals, that would be interesting.
In my opinion inspecting the bearing in place and removing the outer seal is a valid procedure for protecting the bearing. It has the advantage of costing nothing (if you are already there to change the clutch and/or the RMS) and you don’t run the danger of causing new problems. It is possible to mess up an IMSB removal and install.

I question some of the commonly (more or less) accepted “truths” about the IMSBs.
It is often said that IMSBs that survive for over 100,000 miles will (likely) not fail. I haven’t seen any statistics that would indicate this. But I wonder if with time the bearing seals deteriorate to the point that they allow enough oil to circulate into the bearing to keep it lubricated.

Engines with frequent oil changes and engines that do track duty supposedly have fewer IMSB failures. I have heard this but have not seen an explanation of why this would be true, nor have I seen statistics that support this.

Then there is the question of whether the IMSB is a maintenance part that should be changed every 30,000 or 50,000 miles. Porsche didn’t think so. I would suggest that with proper lubrication (removal of the outer seals) the bearing would in most cases last until a major rebuild is needed. I would have difficulty defending suppliers that sell a product that costs one or two thousand dollars to install and that has to be changed each time that the clutch is serviced.

These are but my opinions. Porsche must have the data on failures and forensic data to fully understand what has happened… but they aren’t sharing it.
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Arctic Silver 2000 Boxster S - bought with a broken engine, back on the road with the engine replaced
Green 2000 Boxster 5-speed and 1978 928 auto
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Old 02-10-2022, 12:49 PM   #8
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A couple of responses:

3) The seal facing the flywheel tends to harden and shrink over time, allowing oil to enter the bearing and wash out the grease. We have seen many bearings, dual and single rows, where the grease was gone, but relatively little oil was in the shaft. We have also seen both with totally flooded shafts, which may be a function of heating and cooling pulling the oil in, but as several of the non-flooded shaft bearings showed considerable degradation, it is the grease getting washed out and poor lubrication that leads to bearing failures.

5) The oil level only normally reaches the bearing level when the engine is not running; people fail to realize how far down the sump level drops with the engine running, particularly if it is running hard. Porsche put oil scavenging pumps in the cylinder heads for a reason: To get the excess oil trapped in the heads back down to the sump to keep the sump oil pump pickup covered. We actually tested this idea many years ago during an engine dyno test by drilling the case on a track car engine and installing barbed fittings with a clear hose in between them so we could see the oil level at various RPM levels. The oil level drops almost immediately after the engine starts and drops way more when the RPM levels go up. Even under modest engine speeds, the oil level is below the IMS bearing, so removing the rear seal allows oil mist in, not liquid oil.

6)2000 and 2001 engines would be either single or dual row IMS bearings. These years are considered a "transitional period" for the bearing designs, requiring pull the flywheel and looking to determine which bearing is in the engine. In spite of all the drivel posted on the internet, build dates on these years are useless; I personally own both a very early 2000 M96 engine car, and one of the very last produced in 2001, both purchased new during the model year. When I retrofitted both with IMS Solutions, I found the 2000 engine was a single row, while the 2001 was a dual row, which is totally contrary to what the internet thinks should be there.
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Old 02-10-2022, 04:34 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JFP in PA View Post
A couple of responses:

3) The seal facing the flywheel tends to harden and shrink over time, allowing oil to enter the bearing and wash out the grease. We have seen many bearings, dual and single rows, where the grease was gone, but relatively little oil was in the shaft. We have also seen both with totally flooded shafts, which may be a function of heating and cooling pulling the oil in, but as several of the non-flooded shaft bearings showed considerable degradation, it is the grease getting washed out and poor lubrication that leads to bearing failures.

5) The oil level only normally reaches the bearing level when the engine is not running; people fail to realize how far down the sump level drops with the engine running, particularly if it is running hard. Porsche put oil scavenging pumps in the cylinder heads for a reason: To get the excess oil trapped in the heads back down to the sump to keep the sump oil pump pickup covered. We actually tested this idea many years ago during an engine dyno test by drilling the case on a track car engine and installing barbed fittings with a clear hose in between them so we could see the oil level at various RPM levels. The oil level drops almost immediately after the engine starts and drops way more when the RPM levels go up. Even under modest engine speeds, the oil level is below the IMS bearing, so removing the rear seal allows oil mist in, not liquid oil.

6)2000 and 2001 engines would be either single or dual row IMS bearings. These years are considered a "transitional period" for the bearing designs, requiring pull the flywheel and looking to determine which bearing is in the engine. In spite of all the drivel posted on the internet, build dates on these years are useless; I personally own both a very early 2000 M96 engine car, and one of the very last produced in 2001, both purchased new during the model year. When I retrofitted both with IMS Solutions, I found the 2000 engine was a single row, while the 2001 was a dual row, which is totally contrary to what the internet thinks should be there.
Thanks for the information, very interesting.
3) As I mentioned my engine had very little oil in the shaft or the bearing and no grease in the bearing which would be explained by the external seal degradation.
5) That is good to know. Have you had experience with bearings that have had the seals removed? I have never seen anything about them failing from lack of lubrication. This would suggest that the mist is enough, or that the sample is not large enough to be meaningful. I will make a point of keeping the oil level at the highest level.
6) I am aware that there is no guaranteed relationship between MY, serial number and bearing. I was speaking in general terms.
Thanks again for your input.
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Old 02-11-2022, 07:10 AM   #10
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We remove the rear seals on the oversized non-serviceable IMS bearings any time we have reason to be in there, or when customer's request it; been doing it for years without any issues.

We also always recommend running oil fill levels two bars below the full mark on (cold) the electronic displays, and have been doing so for many years. We found that the cars respond with noticeably fewer "smokey starts" the Boxster's are famous for, and reduced AOS failures.
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Old 09-12-2022, 11:19 AM   #11
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I finally got back to the IMSB installation today. The engine that is in the 986 is running so well that I haven't been in a hurry.
I ended up using the original flange with a new o-ring and the original center bolt. The bearing went in the freezer and I heated the shaft with my heat gun before starting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Homeoboxter View Post
... As for the snap ring: I guided the snap ring into the groove with a screwdriver while pressing the bearing in...
I made a sleeve that was supposted to hold the snap ring in place, but it didn't work out so I did as suggested by Homeboxster... while tapping the bearing in bring the snap ring up to the face of the shaft then slowly advance while pushing the snap ring into the groove. You have to find the spot where the ring will be held in the groove but not be jammed before it is inserted, not as difficult as I imagined, just go slowly.

I used a 32mm socket to drive the bearing in, if I did it again I would use a washer slightly larger than the bearing, or a larger socket. If not perfectly centered the 32mm contacted the bearing seal and deformed it slightly. When I tried to turn the bearing after installation it was binding. I removed the seal (which I intended to do anyway) and it turned without any problem. Scared me for a minute.
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Old 09-15-2022, 01:40 PM   #12
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Good to see it worked out!
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Old 11-23-2022, 07:41 AM   #13
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Some additional information on the IMSB in general

The 2000 S that I bought recently was diagnosed, by a reputable indie that does a lot of Porsches, as an IMSB failure... based on metal in the oil filter. I just took the flange off the IMSB this morning and the bearing is fine.

with the seal in place



seal removed... it is a dual row bearing.

When I removed the seal I heard air being sucked into the bearing... so it had maintined a vacuum in the IMS shaft for a couple of months. At least the outer seal was in good shape, I wonder about the inner one.
No oil leaked out and what lubricant is left is rather sad looking, but the bearing itself is not loose and turns just fine.
So how many "IMSB failures" are not... IMSB failures?
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Old 11-23-2022, 10:28 AM   #14
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Quite a few probably. Did you find particles from the chain pad in the sump? When that goes the chain starts running on steel producing some metal shavings.
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Old 11-25-2022, 11:17 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Homeoboxter View Post
Quite a few probably. Did you find particles from the chain pad in the sump? When that goes the chain starts running on steel producing some metal shavings.
I took a look at the filter this morning, no plastic and the metal is copper coloured and I found lots of copper in the oil pan... so definitely rod or main bearings.
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Old 12-11-2022, 04:38 AM   #16
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Another example of blaming the IMSB

I have been watching the "Man in a Garage" videos while tearing down the engine mentioned in post #13 above. The engine that is the object of the videos was diagnosed as an IMSB failure... but when the engine was opened up the IMSB was fine.
This is not to deny that there are IMSB failures... but it should not be blamed without having a look inside.

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