I read where the 2.7 motor blows up for no real reason...

[FIG]

Originally Posted by Grizzly

If bulletproof reliability is what helps you sleep, buy a Camry. I like beige Camrys with brown corduroy interiors. I think they're very attractive. My Grandmother has one. It leaks...and sometimes...it breaks.

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by Grizzly

We've had this same discussion over and over. I'll say it again...Cars break. All of them break. If the car breaks, fix it. If you don't want to fix it, sell it. But quit yer friggin' whinin' about it.

You are not a prisoner of the Marque. No one is forcing you to own the car. If you don't like your odds and you find others' failure rates more appealing, by all means trade in your junk and buy one of their offerings.

Oh, it leaks. Oh, it breaks. Oh, it's not quick enough. Oh, it eats tires. Oh, my Pacer was much more reliable. Oh, my Vega never had these problems. Oh, my Ford dealer never put me through this when my Aspire imploded. Blah, blah, freakin' blah.

The car has flaws. The company is not doing enough to correct them. You may have certain difficulties with it. It is an expensive car to fix. It's also the most fun you can have with your clothes on (unless you drive naked and then, well it's immeasurable ).

If bulletproof reliability is what helps you sleep, buy a Camry. I like beige Camrys with brown corduroy interiors. I think they're very attractive. My Grandmother has one. It leaks...and sometimes...it breaks.

Hi,

That isn't the point of the discussion here. The point is value and that's what you expect when you pay the premium price for a Porsche. It may drive like stink, but the anxiety factor can heavily dilute any joy you get from that.

There are a lot of 1st time Porsche owners in this group, buying pre-owned Boxsters. They aren't necessarily sitting on loads of surplus cash which they can earmark to fix a problem that even Kias don't experience.

Add to this that a $12k engine replacement in a $20k-$25k used car, not because it was pressed, but because Porsche chose to design an engine which was simple and cheap to manufacture (not so they could lower their price point, but so they could better line their own coffers) and prone to failure, means that these owners are basically buying a car in the low-mid $30's, but without realizing it. Many would not, or could not do that. If they'd known this upfront, they would have likely gone for a lower priced and performanced, but vastly more reliable, Miata, Mustang or Z3, or one of the Japanese Sport Coupes.

And, unlike many other manufacturers who've experienced their share of failures, Porsche, after more than a decade, isn't getting out in front of this or candidly informing the Public. Many view this as a form of deception, leaving Forums like this to expose that the Emperor really does have No Clothes, despite the urges from the Marque faithful to Hush.

You own a '97. If it implodes, I suspect you'll simply dispose of it. But, for others, they simply cannot take the hit...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[Silverstreak]

Originally Posted by Grizzly

We've had this same discussion over and over. I'll say it again...Cars break. All of them break. If the car breaks, fix it. If you don't want to fix it, sell it. But quit yer friggin' whinin' about it.

You are not a prisoner of the Marque. No one is forcing you to own the car. If you don't like your odds and you find others' failure rates more appealing, by all means trade in your junk and buy one of their offerings.

Oh, it leaks. Oh, it breaks. Oh, it's not quick enough. Oh, it eats tires. Oh, my Pacer was much more reliable. Oh, my Vega never had these problems. Oh, my Ford dealer never put me through this when my Aspire imploded. Blah, blah, freakin' blah.

The car has flaws. The company is not doing enough to correct them. You may have certain difficulties with it. It is an expensive car to fix. It's also the most fun you can have with your clothes on (unless you drive naked and then, well it's immeasurable ).

If bulletproof reliability is what helps you sleep, buy a Camry. I like beige Camrys with brown corduroy interiors. I think they're very attractive. My Grandmother has one. It leaks...and sometimes...it breaks.

Whatever.... the S2000 was my other choice and I think just a bit more fun than Grandma's Camery, but like I said, I didn't do my homework. We are not talking a water pump or wheel bearing, we're talking $11,000+ to replace the motor..... I don't have that much to throw away and it's ridiculous to have to shell out that much cash for an obvious major design flaw no matter WHO the manufacturer is. Because it is a Porsche, it's not ok.

Sorry for the rant, I tend to look at the worst case senerio. I'll get over it and hopefully enjoy the car for a few thousand uneventful miles..... at least the odds are in my favor that it will hold together rather than not.

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by z12358

"We've had this same discussion over and over."

I agree with Grizzly. Perhaps I'll change my mind when my first big problem comes but I have two things I've been meaning to say that may have been overlooked:

1. The failure statistics (1 in 4 or 5) are just estimates. But even if they were confirmed, one could dollarize them as just another addition to the cost of ownership. We already know that there are plenty of cheaper good cars out there that are also cheaper to maintain, too. But the market seems to be pricing in some sort of performance and quality (other than reliability) attributes in a Porsche that differentiate it from the rest. In other words, people are prepared to pay more for a Porsche (in more than one way, and that includes purchase price, maintenance, and increased dollarized cost of potential repair) than for other "comparable" cars. Personally, I could not replicate the experience of driving my Box in any other car I had driven (not even close) and I found the price of that feeling acceptable. Obviously others have too.

These are estimates to be sure. But, lacking anything official from Porsche, this is all we have to go on. And, they are conservative estimates, and ones which both a PCNA Service Rep and an Area Dealer confirmed to me in conversation. There have been polls done here and on other Forums which rate the failure % much higher. All the rest of this is fine if you know this beforehand, if you make an informed choice. But, the information is from non-official sources and make many of the naysayers look like malcontents (I fear being so labled sometimes).

2. It's not fair to compare Porsche to Toyota or most other cars out there. I can't prove this but I have a feeling that, on average, Porsches are driven much harder than most other cars out there. They are simply built and optimized for that -- and they are so darn fun when pushed. I would bet that an average Porsche operates multiple times longer in the 4k+ rpm area than an average Lexus, Toyota, or even a BMW, for that matter. An average Porsche would be exposed to much higher G-forces than all of those as well, subjecting the suspension and the engine with all its fluids to much more stress. These must be taken into consideration when comparing failure and reliability statistics, and then apples to apples the differences may not be so "outrageous".

Again, these are fundamental design failures, not ones which are brought on by pushing the limits of the car. I have a friend with an '04 S which suffered a catastrophic RMS failure at 2300 miles and he had yet to exceed 4k RPM on the car - engine replacement. A woman had an intermediate shaft failure while idling at a stoplight (0MPH, 0G) - engine replacement.

I don't concede that they are as a whole driven any harder. There are many people who don't Track, DE or Auto-X their Boxsters at all, and they aren't any more exempt from these problems than anyone else. The failures are simply not related to heavy use such as Blown Head gaskets, failed Rod Bearings, and Melted Pistons usually are.

I drive my Boxster like I do my everyday car - pretty easy, and much less hard than my Esprit. My confidence level is greater in my Esprit (by a factor of 10) than the Boxster, despite Lotus reputation as being China Dolls. In fact, in 16 yrs. owning my Lotus, the only failures I ever had were directly related to pushing the car, and I drive that car HARD!

Z.

Hi,

See above...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[Silverstreak]

Originally Posted by racer_troy

Hey Silver,

I don't have any useful information on the specific failures you're uncovering. Could you provide a link to the data?

Also, FWIW, I'm approaching 78K miles with no issues on my MY00 2.7L.

Additionally, I think the 3.2 achieves it's +500cc with a larger bore...stroke being identical.

Thanks,

--ts

Here are some of the owner's threads that have me concerned >>

http://forums.roadfly.com/forums/porsche/porsche_boxster/6138904-1.html

[Silverstreak]

Originally Posted by ohioboxster

Dont worry about it! When I first joined this forum I was afraid to drive my car, some guys had me so spooked. RMS RMS RMS I decided I would just drive the car and have the last year with no problems besides the ones I've caused. Enjoy your car.

Thanks,

I may be giving you a call. Do you have a good set of wrenches ?

[Boxtaboy]

Originally Posted by MNBoxster

Hi,

That isn't the point of the discussion here. The point is value and that's what you expect when you pay the premium price for a Porsche. It may drive like stink, but the anxiety factor can heavily dilute any joy you get from that.


Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

Sorry, I don't agree that the point is that value is what you expect when you pay the premium price for a Porsche. Value is what you expect out of a Honda purchase, not a Porsche. When you buy a Porsche, you may expect prestige and performance, and at a higher cost than many alternatives, but certainly not value. I agree totally with Grizzly. Stop yer whining already. If you don't like what Porsche is doing or not doing, talk with you wallet and buy somethin else why dontcha?

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by Boxtaboy

Sorry, I don't agree that the point is that value is what you expect when you pay the premium price for a Porsche. Value is what you expect out of a Honda purchase, not a Porsche. When you buy a Porsche, you may expect prestige and performance, and at a higher cost than many alternatives, but certainly not value. I agree totally with Grizzly. Stop yer whining already. If you don't like what Porsche is doing or not doing, talk with you wallet and buy somethin else why dontcha?

Hi,

Clearly, we disagree. You can call it whining if you want, but that simply isn't so, it's just calling it like it is. Sorry if that disturbs you or your choice.

I have already decided to sell my Boxster, even though I've had no problems with it at all (though PO had an RMS replacement at 4k mi. - dry as a bone 24k mi. later). Frankly, the Car just really isn't that great. It has some good points, but it's also heavy, underpowered, poorly designed, potentially unreliable.

I don't care about owning a Porsche, that's no badge of honor for me. I've already owned them and have owned many more prestigeous cars in my time. I've had the Boxster 2 years and half my friends don't even know I own it or have seen it. Interestingly, it's just not the kind of car I would want to hold on to. I don't envision selling my Lotus Esprit (owned 17 yrs.) or Datsun 240Z (owned 34 yrs.) in the foreseeable future, but the Boxster just isn't that kind of car to me.

I was looking for a Miata when this one came along and was too good a deal to pass up. I can sell it today for more than I paid. Been there, done that, got the 'T' shirt. So many cars... so little time. I think I hear a new direction calling...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[z12358]

MNBoxster:
"My confidence level is greater in my Esprit (by a factor of 10) than the Boxster, despite Lotus reputation as being China Dolls. In fact, in 16 yrs. owning my Lotus, the only failures I ever had were directly related to pushing the car, and I drive that car HARD!"

So Jim, what do you say to those naysayers in a Lotus forum that may be unhappy paying a Lotus premium for an unworthy China Doll?

Z.

[Brucelee]

Those are good rationalizations and I applaud you for them.

Porsche still produces engines with faulty designs, charges a ton of money for the car, and refuses to fix known flaws for years on end.

If you guys are fine with that, fine. No need to hide the issue from others however.

[z12358]

MNBoxster:
"I have already decided to sell my Boxster,..."

Jim, if that would also mean that we'd lose you at this forum, that'd be quite a loss indeed. Speaking for myself, I really do appreciate all the knowledge you've shared here so far.

Z.

[Boxtaboy]

Originally Posted by MNBoxster

Hi,

Clearly, we disagree. You can call it whining if you want, but that simply isn't so, it's just calling it like it is. Sorry if that disturbs you or your choice.

I have already decided to sell my Boxster, even though I've had no problems with it at all (though PO had an RMS replacement at 4k mi. - dry as a bone 24k mi. later). Frankly, the Car just really isn't that great. It has some good points, but it's also heavy, underpowered, poorly designed, potentially unreliable.

I don't care about owning a Porsche, that's no badge of honor for me. I've already owned them and have owned many more prestigeous cars in my time. I've had the Boxster 2 years and half my friends don't even know I own it or have seen it. Interestingly, it's just not the kind of car I would want to hold on to. I don't envision selling my Lotus Esprit (owned 17 yrs.) or Datsun 240Z (owned 34 yrs.) in the foreseeable future, but the Boxster just isn't that kind of car to me.

I was looking for a Miata when this one came along and was too good a deal to pass up. I can sell it today for more than I paid. Been there, done that, got the 'T' shirt. So many cars... so little time. I think I hear a new direction calling...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

Glad you are putting your wallet where you mouth is. Again, I was talking disputing your specific statement about "value", and how it didn't apply to buying a Porsche. Again, you expect value in a Honda purchase, not a Porsche.

Also, my choice is not disturbed, as I am absolutely loving the car.

Good luck with the next in line.

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by z12358

MNBoxster:
"My confidence level is greater in my Esprit (by a factor of 10) than the Boxster, despite Lotus reputation as being China Dolls. In fact, in 16 yrs. owning my Lotus, the only failures I ever had were directly related to pushing the car, and I drive that car HARD!"

So Jim, what do you say to those naysayers in a Lotus forum that may be unhappy paying a Lotus premium for an unworthy China Doll?

Z.

Hi,

My 22 y.o. Esprit has about the same power (2.2L 4 Cyl - 215HP), about the same weight (2780 lbs.), slightly shorter (165.4"), slightly wider (73.2") slightly lower (44.2"), 7200RPM Redline, . But, it will run rings around a Boxster in the straights (0-60 in 5.0sec. 165MPH Top Speed) or the twisties (1.12G), or the Brake area - 60-0 Braking Distance - 105'.

It makes a huge difference when putting up with Foibles if the car really delivers. Porsche coulda made the Boxster that way, but they chose not to. It's a Boulevard, See and Be Seen, Cruiser, albeit admittedly nimble.

The Lotus is in fact a pretty robust car, not nearly deserving of the reputation. much more reliable than was my Elan SE or Europa Twin Cam Special. In 44k mi. of Driving, almost never city, mostly Open Road or Track, the only failure I experienced was a melted #4 piston brought on by a Lean condition due to a failed Intake Gasket leak at 36k mi. and this even drove me home 186 miles on 3 cylinders, though it wouldn't go over 61MPH doing so. Sounds stupid, but I was at BIR (Brainerd International Raceway) and the car ran, even with the Piston failure. I knew exactly what happened and that I'd be rebuilding the engine (for $2k) anyway, so I figured I couldn't hurt it any worse, and every mile closer to home would mean a cheaper tow (Has to be a Flatbed), so I kept going, with a friend following, and it got me home. Still started the next morning, though it sounded like ********************.

People who think the Esprit is a China Doll are uninformed non-owners. Peruse the Esprit Forums and you won't find catastrophic engine failures which result from design flaws. 99% of all engine catastrophies in the Esprit are from failed or improperly tensioned timing belts (read Owner ignorance or negligence), or from actually pushing the engine too hard over Redline. They are 1960's technology (Lotus 910 Engine powered the Jensen Healey) with Dellorto carbs and plugs which need to be changed every 5k mi., Oil every 3k mi., eats rear tires, Fuel Tanks can rust out (replace with Alloy units), but other than that, and the odd Lucas electrical gremlin (which I have had none of), they're pretty reliable. Parts are about 1/2 what Porsche charges and readily available. They don't rust. You could buy a reasonable example for $10k. And... James Bond never drove no Porsche...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[JackG]

Originally Posted by MNBoxster

Hi,

I have already decided to sell my Boxster...
Frankly, the Car just really isn't that great.

I don't care about owning a Porsche

I can sell it today for more than I paid.

I think I hear a new direction calling...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

Well... don't let the screen door hit you. :dance:

[Grizzly]

First and foremost. Silverstreak, I was not picking on you. You asked a completely legitimate question about engine failures. My rant has everything to do with the same players jumping on their soapboxes and scaring the **************** out of each other to the point that they they stop enjoying their perfectly good Boxsters.

I look at it this way. I'm a drag racer. When you drag race, you break ****************. Should I live in a state of perpetual apprehension because I might break something? Should I quit enjoying the sport of drag racing forever because I might twist an axle or bend a clutch fork? My answer is no. I recognize the risk and then enjoy the crap out of myself at the track. If I break the car, sometimes it gets very expensive, but that's the price of playing the game.

I live on the Chesapeake Bay. In 2003, Hurricane Isabel came through and ate my house and nearly everything else I owned. If you live on the water, this can happen. Should I pack up and move to Idaho? For me, the answer is no. I can think of nothing I love more than watching the sun come up over the water, or the sailboat races on Wednesday evenings. If a storm comes through and wipes out the house again, it'll be a huge pain in the ass, but that's the price of living here and I wouldn't trade it for a safer locale.

You shouldn't drive around in your Boxster in a perpetual state of fear just waiting for that oil spot to appear on the garage floor. You should drop the top as much as possible, throw on your coolest shades, crank your tunes and drive. The Boxster has the ability to melt away the stress of the day, or to give you the reason you need to drive to work in the first place. If you only use it as a weekend car, it reminds you of why you work so friggin' hard. If it breaks, fix it. There's a good chance that it won't. Some guys obsess over that fact that the RMS, engine, or whatever may fail and that Porsche is doing nothing to correct it. So might our hearts, lungs, and kidneys. Should we stop living now in case one of those organs screws up? Should we cower under the covers in our darkened bedrooms, furious at the medical community and waiting to die? You can if you want to. Me? I'm going to live. If my heart (or my Boxster) explodes I will be able to say that I enjoyed every minute of the time I had.

Plan like you'll live forever. Live like you'll die tomorrow.

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by Grizzly

First and foremost. Silverstreak, I was not picking on you. You asked a completely legitimate question about engine failures. My rant has everything to do with the same players jumping on their soapboxes and scaring the **************** out of each other to the point that they they stop enjoying their perfectly good Boxsters.

I look at it this way. I'm a drag racer. When you drag race, you break ****************. Should I live in a state of perpetual apprehension because I might break something? Should I quit enjoying the sport of drag racing forever because I might twist an axle or bend a clutch fork? My answer is no. I recognize the risk and then enjoy the crap out of myself at the track. If I break the car, sometimes it gets very expensive, but that's the price of playing the game.

I live on the Chesapeake Bay. In 2003, Hurricane Isabel came through and ate my house and nearly everything else I owned. If you live on the water, this can happen. Should I pack up and move to Idaho? For me, the answer is no. I can think of nothing I love more than watching the sun come up over the water, or the sailboat races on Wednesday evenings. If a storm comes through and wipes out the house again, it'll be a huge pain in the ass, but that's the price of living here and I wouldn't trade it for a safer locale.

You shouldn't drive around in your Boxster in a perpetual state of fear just waiting for that oil spot to appear on the garage floor. You should drop the top as much as possible, throw on your coolest shades, crank your tunes and drive. The Boxster has the ability to melt away the stress of the day, or to give you the reason you need to drive to work in the first place. If you only use it as a weekend car, it reminds you of why you work so friggin' hard. If it breaks, fix it. There's a good chance that it won't. Some guys obsess over that fact that the RMS, engine, or whatever may fail and that Porsche is doing nothing to correct it. So might our hearts, lungs, and kidneys. Should we stop living now in case one of those organs screws up? Should we cower under the covers in our darkened bedrooms, furious at the medical community and waiting to die? You can if you want to. Me? I'm going to live. If my heart (or my Boxster) explodes I will be able to say that I enjoyed every minute of the time I had.

Plan like you'll live forever. Live like you'll die tomorrow.

Hi,

I like your philosophy, but that's all it is, philosophy.

The lister posed a legitimate question, as you note. All I did was give a legitimate answer. It may not concern you if the Boxster explodes, if mine did I could easily absorb the loss. Others either cannot, or don't want to, and that's OK too. It's kinda tough having a frank discussion without being frank.

I've owned 39 cars in my life. None of them perfect, some less perfect than others. Some with minor annoyances and some with major ones. IMHO, the Boxster belongs to the latter group regardless of how many times it may make the corners of your mouth curl up, that's all...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by JackG

Well... don't let the screen door hit you. :dance:

Hi,

Oooh... somebody didn't take their Happy Pills today...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

Originally Posted by MNBoxster

Hi,

I like your philosophy, but that's all it is, philosophy.

The lister posed a legitimate question, as you note. All I did was give a legitimate answer. It may not concern you if the Boxster explodes, if mine did I could easily absorb the loss. Others either cannot, or don't want to, and that's OK too. It's kinda tough having a frank discussion without being frank.

I've owned 39 cars in my life. None of them perfect, some less perfect than others. Some with minor annoyances and some with major ones. IMHO, the Boxster belongs to the latter group regardless of how many times it may make the corners of your mouth curl up, that's all...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

But Jim, how can you say this? You have not had any problems with your Boxster. Where's the annoyance?

[Grizzly]

Originally Posted by MNBoxster

Hi,

I like your philosophy, but that's all it is, philosophy.

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

Oh, I don't know Jim. You seem to be the guy with the inferior, faulty, underpowered, mediocre automobile that you don't like and really never did. Maybe you just enjoy being miserable. I've owned a lot of cars too...still do. And I've owned some real dissapointments (mostly British). Unlike you however, I didn't relentlessly research their inherent design problems, only to spend countless hours crowing about them to anyone who would listen. Instead, I sold the unreliable, leaking little sputtering bastards to someone else and moved on. If cars are my passion, and I only have so much time here, why waste it?

[ohioboxster]

Originally Posted by Silverstreak

Thanks,

I may be giving you a call. Do you have a good set of wrenches ?

Yes I do and when were done we will go out on our R-6's and blow off some steam!
Well, maybe in spring its kinda friggin cold huh?